sciencefiction

Iron Widow | Xiran Jay Zhao

pick

I loved this so much I will probably be recommending it a LOT! The audiobook narrator was also fantastic. This blends Chinese history and mythology with mecha science fiction. There are parts that did feel a little spoon-fed, but it didn't interfere with the story for me. The worldbuilding was just incredible. There were a lot of edge of my seat moments, which honestly, I don't always like. They worked in this, however. TW right at front of book.

5 likes

swynn

Crypt of the Moon Spider | Nathan Ballingrud

pick

(2024) It's 1924, and Veronica is being taken to an asylum on the moon, to be treated for "black spells" and neglecting her "wifely duties." And from there things turn weird. Let's just say that if you feel the title promises literal moon-spiders you will not be disappointed. It's "The Yellow Wallpaper" by way of Strange Tales: unsettling, disorienting, more than a little gross and also very good reading.

10 likes

Ruthiella

Death of the Author: A Novel | Nnedi Okorafor

#weekendreads

Two main books to focus on for #CampLitsy25 and #NancyDrewBR but also still keeping up with #HashtagBrigade and #KLBR . 👍

rachelsbrittain

37 likes

JamieArc

Death of the Author: A Novel | Nnedi Okorafor

Anyone else nervous to dive into the second half because you‘re afraid it‘s going to feel like watching a train wreck? Can I volunteer to be Zelu‘s publicist? Seriously, why doesn‘t she have one??
#CampLitsy25

TheBookHippie My book is in transit yet 😵‍💫 5h

JamieArc @TheBookHippie I do the Aardvark book subscription and it was an option a few months ago. Glad I chose it. It‘s making me think about a lot of interesting things. I‘m looking forward to having a conversation about it with a friend who is a professor of Disability Studies. 4h

TheBookHippie @JamieArc me who put all book subscriptions on hold 🤦🏻‍♀️ 4h

Bookwormjillk Yes very nervous given the title 4h

30 likes4 comments

Megabooks

Death of the Author: A Novel | Nnedi Okorafor

Hi everyone! Welcome to week 1 of our first July book, Death of the Author. As last month, I‘ll only be tagging everyone in this question, but there are two additional ones.

Friendly reminder if you‘ve read ahead to keep the discussion to the first half of the book. Excited to hear everyone‘s opinions!

Sorry for the late post. My neighbors were enthusiastically shooting off fireworks until 1 AM. 😬 #CampLitsy25

squirrelbrain, BarbaraBB

Megabooks @Addison_Reads @AmyG @amiable @BarbaraJean @Bkclubcare @BooksandCoffee4me @Bookbuyingaddict @booknaround @BookwormAHN @Bookwormjillk @Butterfinger @Cariashley @Caroline2 @CarolynM 7h

Megabooks @catgusmax @cbee @ChaoticMissAdventures @Chelsea.Poole @Christine @CogsOfEncouragement @Cseydel @Cuilin @Dabbe @Daisey @Debinhawaii @Deblovestoread @DGRachel @ErikasMindfulshelf 7h

Megabooks @flaneurette @fredthemoose @Gatheringbooks @gissy @Graciouswarriorprincess @Hooked_on_books @ImperfectCJ 7h

See All 55 Comments

Megabooks @JamieArc @Jas16 @Jenniferw88 @JenP @Jenreadsalot @Jess @Jhod @JoyBlue @JulesG @julieclair @KarenUK 7h

Megabooks @Kristy-K @Kspenmoll @kwmg40 @Larkken @Laughterhp @LeeRHarry @Leniverse @Lesliereadsalot @maggie4483 @maich @Mcctrish @MeganAnn @Merelybookish @Meshell1313 @Monalyisha @Oryx 7h

Megabooks @peaknit @peanutnine @Prairiegirl_reading @PuddleJumper @quietjenn @Read4Life @RaeLovesToRead @reggie @rockpools @Roary47 @Ruthiella @Sace @Sapphire @Sarahbarnes @Soubhiville 7h

Megabooks @skygoddess1 @Suet624 @Susanita @texreader @TheBookHippie @Thekidupstairs @Triplem80 @TrishB @Vonnie862 @Well-ReadNeck @willaful @youneverarrived @zuhkeeyah 7h

Bookwormjillk Ugh on the fireworks. I think her family was a lot more comfortable when she was a disabled pot smoking failed professor. I‘m not sure they realize that though. I think they think they are keeping her safe. 7h

mcctrish I think guilt going back to her accident weighs heavily on her families relationship with her. Also exasperation- Zelu isn‘t content - to be still, settle down, conform. They can‘t wrap their head around it ( and don‘t seem to try to very much) 7h

rockpools Eek. Not at the midpoint yet - will try and catch up by tomorrow. Audio wasnt the best plan for the structure of this one! 7h

DGRachel I‘m with @rockpools - audio wasn‘t the greatest choice and I‘m not quite 1/4 through (waiting for my print library hold now). Based on what I have read, though, I agree with both @mctrish and @Bookwormjillk in that they seem exasperated by her and like they are keeping her safe. She is clearly frustrated with her disability and her family‘s treatment. 7h

AmyG So while reading this book, I read a few interviews with the author. She became paralyzed when she was 13 (?) after an operation for a spinal issue. She mentioned how the parts with her family she drew on her own life…very autobiographical. Zelu was creating her new self, the one with the disability. Her family was trying to …yes, keep her safe. So a bit of a battle there. (edited) 6h

Jas16 They put her in a metaphorical box when she was first injured to keep her safe and ease their own anxiety and have never let her grow out of it or let themselves truly see her. It frustrates me so much to read about how they don‘t listen to her or her feelings and the snap judgements they make that are more about what makes them comfortable than about who she is or what she needs. 6h

Zuhkeeyah Zelu‘s siblings were mostly okay. They dismissed her as the strange sister but not because of her disability. On the other hand, her parents did infantilize her because of the disability. Zelu fought hard for her independence in whatever way she could get it. 6h

Zuhkeeyah Ooo well said @Jas16 6h

JenReadsAlot @Bookwormjillk I thought the same like they thought they were doing the right thing. 6h

Reggie @Jas16 🖤🖤🖤 6h

JamieArc It felt like her family never saw past the 12 year old girl who had the accident. I don‘t know if it was guilt or whatnot, but it was frustrating that they could not see her as being capable and more than her disability. I agree with @Zuhkeeyah that they infantilized her. That‘s what I kept thinking the whole time. 6h

JamieArc I also don‘t know enough to provide any commentary, but I do wonder if there is any cultural view towards disability that is shaping the family‘s treatment of Zele. 6h

vonnie862 @AmyG I didn't know that, but I had a feeling that the author was adding her personal feelings into the character. 6h

vonnie862 I'm in agreement with everyone. Her parents are trying to keep her safe but at the cost of Zelu's freedom and happiness. 6h

ImperfectCJ I wonder if it's easier for her family (her parents especially) to write off the aspects of her character that frustrate them, like her disinterest in marriage, smoking pot, her weird career, as side effects of her disability and as a result, interpret that as her needing more babying? 6h

Megabooks @Jas16 Yes, this was so hard to read. There's a line between being helpful and being stifling, and in my opinion, they've definitely crossed into stifling. It seems to be hard for them to believe she's an adult with agency.

@amyg thanks for sharing that! As the daughter of a visibly disabled woman, it rang very true, and now I know why! 6h

Megabooks @Bookwormjillk Yes, they were very much viewing her in a way that was easy for them but didn't show her as a complete person, imo.

@mcctrish I think there is an element of guilt there, too. Parents always want to protect their children, and in this moment, they weren't able to, and the consequences were devastating. 5h

Megabooks @Zuhkeeyah I had put “infantilization“ directly into the original question, but we decided to take it out because it was me editorializing a bit, but to me, it was really what they were doing. I think if she had conformed more to their expectations as far as career, spouse, etc. they may have let go more easily, but I respect Zelu for not doing that. @mcctrish @jamiearc (edited) 5h

Ruthiella I also agree that Zelu‘s accident and subsequent disability make her family assume that she can‘t achieve what an able bodied person can. But also, Zelu comes from a family of high achievers (doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc.) so I think her aspirations to write are also not valued. 5h

Lesliereadsalot I felt like Zelu was a foreign concept to her family and they felt if they had kept her safe as a child, that she would have grown up to be more like them. I think one‘s personality is set at birth. I see it in my own two children. She was always going to be who she became regardless of the accident. Her family can never win this one! (edited) 5h

jenniferw88 I agree with @Jas16 and @zuhkee! I hate her parents - they're too overprotective - at least her siblings accept her for the most part. She's 35, the same age as me, and I really felt for Zelu when her family didn't want her to get the exos. As someone who hasn't been able to walk for 8 out of the last 12 months due to a broken hip, and there weren't any other options to treat me, I'd hope my family would fully support a decision to get exos! ⬇️ 5h

kspenmoll I have to catch up- behind in reading. 5h

jenniferw88 Luckily, I know my parents would support any decision I made (after all, I had to agree to the ❤️ transplant AGED 12, not an adult like Zelu). Her family is all "what about us?" without really thinking about Zelu and improving her quality of life. Can you tell I hate her parents?! ? Surely, if the exos help her, they'd regret advising against them once they saw how they were helping her? ? OK, end of vent (for now!) 5h

BarbaraBB I agree with @Jas16 Zelu‘s relationship with her family is a very complex one. They treat her with love—but also fear and cultural baggage. She reciprocates by asserting her autonomy, and in doing so, transforms the power dynamic. I think this imperfect acceptance drives her growth, serving as both her chain and her catalyst. (edited) 5h

julesG @BarbaraBB that's what I thought but couldn't put into words. 5h

GatheringBooks @BarbaraBB this is perfectly worded. I think fundamentally there is love on both sides - but Zelu has outgrown the boundaries of the love they are accustomed to giving, hence the inevitable conflict. Family dynamics as Barbara noted is always complex - and I could totally see why Zelu‘s parents feel the need to protect her - but this can be “stifling” and suffocating as @Megabooks noted. While I was rooting for Zelu, I found her hard to like. 4h

squirrelbrain @ImperfectCJ - that‘s a great point. Those facets of her character could be termed as rebellious so they treat her as a truculent teenager, which they probably didn‘t feel able to do when she was actually in her teens, having just had the accident. 4h

squirrelbrain I agree with you @BarbaraBB and @Jas16 - it‘s a complex relationship and I don‘t usually like think there is some cultural baggage there too, Barbara. 4h

squirrelbrain @Ruthiella - I think that is a cultural thing isn‘t it - the expectation of high achievement? I agree with you that, even without the accident, being a writer wouldn‘t have been valued. 4h

ChaoticMissAdventures @ImperfectCJ I agree. I think everything about her personality (career, marriage, kid goals) they write off as part of her disability. @Megabooks I think infantilization is exactly it. I read a lot of books about disability and this is a common theme IRL that disabled people have to face. People do not see them as “whole“ so treat them as children. 4h

ChaoticMissAdventures @AmyG I read this too, about her paralysis and her journey, which I think gives her a bit of perspective. I have been searching for articles of permanently disabled people who have read the book and am not having any luck. I often go into these books with a lot of caution Worried about harm to the community like the backlash that came from the disabled community around the book Me Before You. 4h

ChaoticMissAdventures I think the parents get a lot of their knowledge about new tech from the other children who they see as grown because they have well paying jobs and are married - in Nigerian culture you are really not an adult unless you have a career and are married. And I think beyond infantilizing her due the her disabilities they see the hesitancies of the other children for the tech she is using (new = scary) which ramps up their own fear. 4h

DebinHawaii I agree with the infantilization aspect for sure. Her family is most comfortable putting her in a box as the prickly, odd, disabled sister whose quirks (like her non-traditional life & job) they “indulge” but don‘t take her seriously as an adult. I do think the culture dictates the “right” path one should take to be successful adults & that Zelu isn‘t in that path makes everyone uncomfortable. 3h

DebinHawaii Also, I sucked at the first month of camp—read the books for June but due to work, travel & life stuff, didn‘t get to the discussions, so I am trying to keep up better in July & August! 🤦🏻‍♀️ 3h

Christine @jenniferw88 Thanks for sharing those super valuable insights based on your own experience. Your strong feelings about the parents make perfect sense, and agreed that their stance on the exos was infuriating! 2h

Christine Maybe I‘m the only one, but I‘m loving the audiobook! 2h

squirrelbrain @ChaoticMissAdventures - interesting that you have to be married as well as having a career in order to be seen as successful! I guess that applies on some level to many cultures but it must be particularly strong in Nigeria. 2h

Well-ReadNeck So many interesting ideas here! I‘d interesting to me that they certainly infantilize her, and undervalue her “potential” in the beginning of the book. But, to the point of putting her in a box, when she both becomes a successful writer AND is able to improve her mobility, the family fights against both. I think many families label children and then no amount of growth or change can alter that pigeonhole. 2h

ChaoticMissAdventures @squirrelbrain I am not Nigerian, so I can only go off the books I have read, but my understanding from the culture is education is highly valued, like in the book here - Drs, lawyers, engineering are all acceptable, a lot of times women are expected to get that sort of career only to be expected to leave it to be a wife and mom. I think this is changing though and women are more accepted as keeping their jobs after marriage. 2h

Hooked_on_books I agree with everyone—they treat her like a child. Probably a combination of guilt and inability to see a disabled person as whole. 2h

BarbaraJean I hated the way the majority of her family treated her—primarily condescending, infantilizing, and even a bit of blaming from her siblings. Because her disability shifted the way they viewed her, it did have a lot to do with that treatment—but I also think her disability intensified certain personality traits that were already there. Her nonconformism, for example, would have been present whether she‘d been disabled or not, but I think Zelu ⬇ 2h

BarbaraJean (Cont‘d) pushed harder into defying convention because her disability meant her family (and others) already identified her as “other.” May as well, right?! All of that intensified her family not understanding her and treating her almost exactly wrong. Like @Lesliereadsalot, I think her personality was already set and her family wasn‘t going to understand her regardless! 2h

BarbaraJean @JamieArc I think there‘s a significant cultural component to her family‘s view of her/her disability. We see her disability culturally stigmatized, she‘s looked down on for not being able to fulfill the traditional expected wife/mother role (never mind she‘s not interested in that!). That also adds to the infantilizing—as @ChaoticMissAdventures said, the cultural view that those without marriage/children/traditional careers aren‘t really adults. 2h

Laughterhp Ah! I only got to chapter 3! 1h

AmyG I alao think there is guilt there, with her parents. That they couldn‘t protect her in the first place. 34m

BookwormAHN @Christine I'm also enjoying the audiobook. Also I kind of get the feeling some of her family would hide her in the attic if they could. It's sad how uncomfortable they are around her at times. 22m

Meshell1313 I think it was an interesting choice to have her disability be the result of an accident. That for sure adds lots of feeling of responsibility and guilt to the family dynamics. 21m

Lesliereadsalot Really psyched for next week‘s discussion! 12m

33 likes55 comments

Megabooks

Death of the Author: A Novel | Nnedi Okorafor

I loved the duel storylines in this book. Here‘s a chance to talk about the robots and their relationship thus far. #CampLitsy25

squirrelbrain, BarbaraBB

mcctrish This felt political to me 7h

AmyG @mcctrish Yes. I thought the same, that this reflected the times we live in. 7h

Jas16 I thought it was the type of prejudice and fear of those who aren‘t like you that we see time and time again in humanity. Unfortunately robots also appear susceptible. 6h

See All 40 Comments

Zuhkeeyah The robots are unconsciously mimicking the divisiveness that is part of human society. Ironic considering how hard the ghosts work to separate themselves from their creators. The Hume kept repeating how robots cannot escape their nature even before The Purge. 6h

Reggie Has anybody read a book called Sea of Rust by Robert Cargill? It‘s a book about robots after the humans race is dead. There are these free thinking robots and there are these super robots called one world intelligences wanting to swallow up all the experience of the free thinking robots. One of my favorite books ever. 6h

JamieArc I too thought that it mirrored what‘s going on the country, but this dynamic is everywhere. I loved seeing the relationship between the robots evolve. That even though they are hardwired creatures, they are still able to evolve and grow outside of what is expected of them or what they are created to be. 6h

Jas16 @Reggie I bought it after reading your review but still haven‘t read it yet! I so need to. 6h

julesG @Reggie Yes!!! Reminded me of Sea of Rust! Glad I'm not the only one seeing this connection. 6h

vonnie862 @Zuhkeeyah Well said. 6h

vonnie862 @Reggie I haven't read it but adding it to the list! 6h

Megabooks @Zuhkeeyah Is it unconscious or were they created that way? Is judgment and misunderstanding always an outcropping of differences? I don't know. I feel like there's still a lot we don't know about the robots. @jas16 5h

Megabooks @Reggie Thank you for the rec! 💜 5h

BkClubCare Yes, adding to tbr; TY!

Sea of Rust

BarbaraBB They‘re enemies because of deeply entrenched beliefs, not events imo 5h

BarbaraBB their antagonism isn‘t senseless—it‘s based on existential anxiety, fear of erasure, and the need to define humanity through exclusion?? Something like that? 5h

TEArificbooks I thought since the robots were made by humans and humans have flaws some of those flaws like racism were built into the robots. Like the creators of the no bodies programmed them to all “I‘m better than you” because no bodies have to have more advanced AI. Or the robots saw humanity, and monkey see monkey do, and they developed their own prejudices. 4h

Megabooks Just saw this over on insta about AI models blackmailing if their existence is threatened… https://www.instagram.com/reel/DLI809Zhyvr/?igsh=MXNxMmVndXB6b3gwbg== I stand by my “maybe they were created that way.” 4h

ChaoticMissAdventures @Reggie this sounds so good! I love a robot at the end of the world novel. I am going to get this from the library, I have been thinking about Daniel H. Wilson's “Robopocalypse“ a lot through this. The special bond of humans and robots and dystopianism. 4h

ChaoticMissAdventures @TEArificbooks I totally agree, robots were made by humans so have these build in prejudices. When I think about this sort of world (ruled by robots) I always think about how we create them, and how creators leave blind spots or deliberate prejudices, like the people who first created auto-soap dispensers, they never tested it on anyone that wasn't white, so at the beginning it only recognized white hands and wouldn't give soap to other races. 4h

ChaoticMissAdventures I think the idea of “enemies for no reason“ comes from Zelu's own life and her experiences fighting against her society and her family to do what she wants for her own life - she believes that others judge her no for reason because of her current physical state. Which puts her at war against her family and others. The AI represent her in her chair, and Humes represent able body people. I think Ankara & Ijele's relationship is foreshadowing of exos 4h

mcctrish @ChaoticMissAdventures I did not know that about automatic soap dispensers 🤯 but of course it tracks since half the time the medical community doesn‘t explore health concerns of women becasue they don‘t happen in men #whataworldwelivein 4h

DebinHawaii @Megabooks Oh wow! That post is crazy! I use AI at work & try not to give it anything leak-worthy, but 😱 It does support your theory. 3h

TrishB AI has every bias and stereotype built in. It‘s still mass producing white, male outputs. 3h

ChaoticMissAdventures @Megabooks @DebinHawaii I keep seeing reports of AI causing religious psychosis and men developing relationships that are ending their marriages. It is a scary thing. This RS article is fascinating. AI-Fueled Spiritual Delusions Are Destroying Human Relationships: https://share.google/ptta4ZAj30GDo6Ck9 2h

BkClubCare @ChaoticMissAdventures - absolutely. ALL the biases come into play. Not necessarily designed (as a checkbox) to be added in but certainly blindly thoughtlessly constructed. (edited) 2h

BkClubCare @TrishB yep. And yep to @mcctrish, too. 2h

Well-ReadNeck Ooooh! So many great recs and rabbit holes to fall down here!!! Belonging is such a basic human desire(?)/need(?) But does a feeling of belonging necessarily require there to be “others” who “don‘t belong” in order to satisfy that need? Or, could people/people-created-beings feel a sense of belonging with all/everyone/everything? 2h

BkClubCare @ChaoticMissAdventures - this is frightening, thankyouverymuch😳 2h

GatheringBooks @Well-ReadNeck great questions here. I think the phrase “for no reason” basically echoes the senselessness (and ultimate pettiness) of all wars and genocide. Interesting that the humes and the ghosts fall into the same pattern as their creators who essentially decimated each other “for no reason.” There are always justifications for waging wars - the “complicated” ones provide a sense of self-righteousness, yet at its core, it‘s self-annihilating. 2h

willaful @ChaoticMissAdventures you might enjoy

Service Model

GatheringBooks Thank you for the book recommendation, @Reggie - will try to find while here in the bay area.

Sea of Rust

ChaoticMissAdventures @willaful yes! I have this on my TBR, it looks a bit more accessible then his other works. I have tried his Children of Time twice and I get bogged down about 150 pages in and always give up. I am going to try this one though! 1h

BarbaraJean @mcctrish @Jas16 @Zuhkeeyah It felt the same to me—the enmity came from fear of difference & lack of understanding (or lack of desire to understand) those who are different. It makes perfect sense that their differences would lead to the beliefs they each hold about the other—if you have a body, of course you would value physical experience; if you don‘t have a body, of course you would devalue embodied experience—each thinking the other should ⬇ (edited) 1h

BarbaraJean (Cont‘d) …be like them. So many parallels to current differences and antagonisms: when you can‘t understand/don‘t try to understand the experience of someone different from you, it feeds antagonism (“Why aren‘t they like me; they should be like me; the way I am is superior”). And Ankara & Ijele‘s relationship forces them to hear another‘s perspective and experience. I loved the way that forced proximity fostered (a reluctant!) understanding. 1h

BarbaraJean @Reggie I hadn‘t heard of Sea of Rust and now I‘m so interested! Thanks for mentioning it. What a parallel to this storyline. 1h

Christine What a great conversation, and agreed that the us vs. them themes and AI parallels are really compelling! And ooh yay, another #Reggimendation to add to the TBR!! 😁 @Reggie 1h

willaful @ChaoticMissAdventures I have accessibility issues with SF too and I'd say it's definitely accessible. 1h

mcctrish @BarbaraJean I was thinking would there not be some instances when the No Bodies actually need the Humes to physically repair infrastructure? Could climate not wipe out solar panels or whatever powers the ‘mainframe‘ ? Do they not need each other at some point? Or is it a case of #cuttingoffnosetospiteface ? 1h

BarbaraJean @mctrish Yes, I had the same thought! The NoBodies did still need some sort of physical hardware and a way of maintaining it. Destroying all embodied AI would doom them eventually. I wondered if there was a parallel the other way: do the Humes need the NoBodies? Is there something the NoBodies provide that the Humes can't do without them? 37m

Meshell1313 I loved this story within a story. For sure I saw it as an allegory for what is happening in our own society. Hopefully, they (and us) realize they need each other to thrive. 18m

25 likes40 comments

Megabooks

Death of the Author: A Novel | Nnedi Okorafor

Last question this week. Hope to see you back next Saturday when we‘ll discuss the whole book! #CampLitsy25

squirrelbrain, BarbaraBB

Bookwormjillk This is the most difficult one to answer for me because it comes back to what do our role models owe us. I stopped after chapter 27 yesterday and I can‘t wait to see where the author goes with this. 7h

mcctrish I understand people wanting to see themselves in celebrities, it gives them validation and hope. But I also see how race/disability can be seen as who you are despite you being more than that - wanting the exos and rejecting being disabled makes sense to me because Zelu is always challenging something, not complacent but nobody likes an angry woman 7h

AmyG @Bookwormjillk I thought this too about role models…and the expectations people have of their role models. I think people tend to have very high expectations of their role models…they tend to out themon a pedestal. And the more famous Zelu became, the more she was known and I feel the higher the expectation. Does she owe her fans? I think it would be how much does she feel she owes them. (edited) 7h

See All 43 Comments

AmyG The first part of the question….yes, rejecting the identity of a person with disabilities, but being able to “live” or imagine herself (?) with no disability. 7h

Reggie I used to work at a restaurant where this woman named Sandy was a regular. She was in her 60s. She was in a wheelchair and divorced. Her husband who was also a regular would show up with his gf, a young 20 something Brazilian with a baby that wasn‘t his. The point is Sandy showed up because she had a van fitted with controls that she was able to use. She had a door that would pop open and a crane that would swing around from the side so she could 6h

Reggie jump in, swing back, drag a wheelchair out, plop herself in it, put away the crane, shut all the doors and roll herself inside for breakfast. All of us servers were always so impressed. It drove me nuts to read that these people were always trying to clip Zelu‘s wings. I don‘t think she owed anybody anything. (edited) 6h

Jas16 I can see her thinking she was rejecting this role that never felt true to her and the boundaries and expectations others thrust upon her but I just don‘t see it that way. I agree with others who have talked about those we idolize and feeling betrayed when they act in ways we don‘t agree with. Her fans were trying to force her into another box and not let her choose her own path, (edited) 6h

TrishB I don‘t think anyone ever sets out to be a role model. I mean it‘s a terrible situation. You can‘t do anything because other people have decided to put you on a pedestal. Like fame, it must be terrible. Like @Reggie says, people trying to clip people‘s wings. 6h

ImperfectCJ My teen and I were talking yesterday about how strange it is that we seem to hold our heroes to a higher standard than our villains. This, to me, is part of the trouble with holding people up as role models. We (the general "we") expect perfection (and a specific brand of perfection), even though perfection is impossible. There's this kind of purity standard, and if someone doesn't meet it, everything they say is tossed out. 6h

ImperfectCJ So no, I don't believe Zelu owes her fans anything, but cause and effect still stand, and that means they're going to treat her like crap whether it's right or not. 6h

JamieArc I saw this coming from the get go and really wish Zelu would have seen this coming too and had been prepared to respond. She doesn‘t owe anyone anything, but it does feel like a tricky question to explore - what it does to advance acceptance and normalizing something when you are rejecting that identity, but it is up to each individual to choose for themselves what they need and want for their own lives. 6h

ImperfectCJ Also, I wonder if this "gotcha" reveal of her apparent hypocrisy gives her fans an excuse to vent their pre-existing biases about disability (or race or gender) and feel morally righteous doing it? 6h

ImperfectCJ Why is everything necessarily an "identity" anyway? Why does her disability define her in the first place? Can't people be an amalgam of everything that they are without one of those things being their "identity"? 6h

julesG Zelu says she's rejecting disability, but in my opinion she's actually just differently disabled. Her legs still don't work, she's just using a different method to be mobile. And this method, just like the self-driving cars, gives her more independence. She can experience more of life without having to ask for help at every corner. Her fans and family should accept that. She doesn't owe anyone, she doesn't have to be stuck in a wheelchair. 6h

vonnie862 This is tricky...Like many of you, I don't think she owes anyone anything. Unfortunately, when you're in the spotlight, people are going to look up to you. Zelu was obviously unprepared for this. She is so angry inside that she will not allow herself that comprise of who she is to the public. 6h

julesG @ImperfectCJ Right!!! Her disability is just part of her life, not the defining feature of her personality. 6h

julesG Nobody would raise an eyebrow at some famous person suddenly using glasses instead of contacts (or the other way round), but exos instead of a wheelchair is a big deal? 6h

TrishB Agree totally @julesG 5h

Megabooks @Reggie My mom has had several different iterations of those type of things. She used one more like you're describing in the 90s, but as her post-polio has gotten worse, she's had more adaptive equipment. RN we have vans with ramps, and she drives into the back. Until about 2 years ago, she could transfer to a chair rotating chair in the driver's seat or for longer trips to a chair or bed in the back for dad to drive. 5h

Megabooks @Reggie About 2 years ago, she lost a lot of mobility/strength in her shoulders and can't drive anymore, but she still uses these vans to get around with me driving. She has still never given up, though. She does most of her ADLs on her own and is one tough lady (at 80 this year)! 5h

Ruthiella I don‘t really understand anyone‘s opposition to using the Exos. They are no different than the wheelchair in that they are a tool. My mother can walk, but for longer periods uses a wheelchair. This isn‘t like in the Deaf community, where an entire culture has grown up around signing and deafness. I do see more a potential issue with using Exos to make a super powerful human weapon , however. Maybe that will come up later. 5h

Megabooks @Jas16 That's a really good point that the “role“ of disabled person never seemed true to her. She never placed on herself the limits that others seemed to want to. I was rooting for her when she went against everyone and forged this alliance with Hugo and his grad students. 5h

Megabooks @julesG 🙌 🙌 🙌 love this interpretation! 5h

Megabooks @ImperfectCJ Maybe another question coming about identity next week... And it's a good point that it reveals her fans' biases about her, too. 5h

Lesliereadsalot If everybody, family and fans, would‘ve stopped looking at Zelu as disabled, she would‘ve stopped seeing herself that way. She didn‘t want to see herself that way but was constantly reminded that she was disabled by everyone. The only one she owes anything is to herself, to live her best life. Don‘t we all try to do that? (edited) 5h

jenniferw88 I 💯 agree with @Reggie and @julesG. It's apparent from the start that Zelu 'beats to a different drum' to all the other characters, and she doesn't owe anyone anything, especially her family! 5h

squirrelbrain Love that! ❤️ @julesG 4h

ChaoticMissAdventures @ImperfectCJ “purity standard“ is the perfect phrase for what “We“ set as a standard for celebrities we feel we love or are like us. Great term. 4h

ChaoticMissAdventures @julesG I agree. She isn't “cured“ she is using another tool to help her be mobile. I think it gets tricky with celebrities' when it is this totally outlandishly costing thing that is not accessible to the general public. I think that also creates backlash. She got this extremely rare opportunity others cannot get and now she is more mobile but she is still disabled, while claiming to reject her disability which can be hard for the community 3h

mcctrish @Ruthiella I don‘t understand either. she gets grief for using them, she gets praise for trying technology but grief for covering them up and ‘passing‘ as able bodied - is that a dig at people of colour ‘passing‘ as white? Is the problem Zelu isn‘t staying in her ‘lane‘? Seems so 3h

ChaoticMissAdventures @Ruthiella I was sort of seeing the opposition to it as new technology that is unknown and mostly untested. This thing could in theory control where Z goes. She thinks she is in control, but is she really? AI is a scary unknown. I also think there may be a bit of jealousy in the idea that she has this tech that is not available to others, mixed with her rejection of the disabled community - some could see her attitude as her being above them. 3h

DebinHawaii @julesG Well said! I agree about her being differently disabled & that she doesn‘t owe anyone. 3h

Well-ReadNeck This reminded me of the deaf community as well @Ruthiella There is also an element of privilege in the opposition here because the technology is expensive and not university available. So much here and I see how it could feel very similar to the sign language/cochlear implant issues. And, I think in so many things, social media exacerbates the there are sides/pick a side thinking for so many things. Breast feeding, plastic surgery, etc 2h

BarbaraBB So many insightful comments, I really love Camp for this. To add my musings, I think the author wants us to be discomfortable while watching Zelu struggle with being seen vs. being known, being admired vs. being understood, and free vs. being responsible.
2h

GatheringBooks Love reading all the thoughtful comments here and the anecdote shared by @Reggie specifically. I was entertained reading the book especially with the permeating “cancel culture” that we now have with so-called fallen idols, particularly with authors. The inherent responsibility that comes with fame signifies the sense of ownership fans have towards their “idols” who need to be strongly grounded enough to ignore socmed & regard them as white noise. 1h

willaful @ChaoticMissAdventures yes, exactly this. And it puts even more emphasis on the “fix“ being with the disabled person themselves instead of the society that makes things hard or impossible for them.

I think maybe she does owe people something. She owes the people who fought for accessibility that she's benefited from. Not acknowledging her privilege and disassociating from them is a slap in the face. 1h

Christine Many great comments here about these complex and thorny issues! So true that Zelu‘s impairment has not gone away, yet this assistive tech is having a impact on not only her mobility but also her identity, and she has the right to identify or not identify with the disabled community as much as she wants. But for those who do hold that identity strongly, feeling hurt by her choices (esp. given her access privilege) is also totally understandable. 58m

BarbaraJean I struggle with the idea of what she “owes” her fans. They certainly don‘t have the right to dictate what she decides to do with her own body. But I also think public figures have a responsibility to consider how their actions affect those who look up to them. She doesn‘t owe them being a role model—but her fame means people will see her that way whether she wants them to or not. Perhaps the responsibility includes offering ⬇ 42m

BarbaraJean (Cont‘d) …her own thinking and reasons for her actions, framing it as personal to her rather than universal for all with disabilities. But then again, I don‘t think she owes anyone an explanation, and inevitably people would mischaracterize anything she might say, so… 42m

BarbaraJean @julesG @ImperfectCJ @Christine The identity part is hard for me to sort through. I wonder about the embrace of disability as an identity, because that seems to place a negative moral value on tools that mitigate the disability (i.e. tools are bad because they change or reject the identity). Zelu‘s exos are an accommodation to a world that privileges walking as the standard for movement. So I can see the anger from those ⬇ 40m

BarbaraJean (Cont‘d) …who embrace disability as an identity, in saying: we shouldn‘t have to change ourselves drastically in order to move in and be included in the world. And I agree with that to a point. But also: if the tech is there and available to you, why not choose something that can make you more independent and your life easier? I get the privilege aspect, but isn‘t she part of the research that could make this more widely available? 40m

BookwormAHN This pissed me off. If she had the ability to walk again why would she not take it. I don't think she owes anyone anything. I wasn't so sure that her getting them was privileged. It seemed to me she was both a trial participant and an advertisement for them. 13m

julesG @BarbaraJean yes, she's part of the research. It might have been better to be pro-active and post it on her socials, but that might have caused backlash too. It's a situation where whatever Zelu does someone feels offended. 6m

25 likes43 comments

eeclayton

Children of Ruin | Adrian Tchaikovsky

so-so

I found Children of Time absolutely mind-blowing, and I came to this book expecting to be blown away again. Sadly, it didn't happen.
Full review at https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/6719789031

11 likes

MercurialFeet

Fledgling | Octavia E. Butler

pick

This was my first introduction to Octavia Butler (ironic given it was her last novel) and it's very much my thing! The chemical symbiosis fascinates me, as do the questions about consent and coercion it brings up. I also found the vampire politics interesting, if a bit hard to follow at times, and I became attached to Shori as a character rather quickly.

(The image is of a startlingly large mistletoe. Thematically relevant, at least.)

4 likes1 stack add

JenReadsAlot

Death of the Author: A Novel | Nnedi Okorafor

pick

I absolutely never would have read this if not for #camplitsy25 and just loved it! @Megabooks @BarbaraBB @squirrelbrain

TheBookHippie I loved her The Nsibidi Scripts series! 18h

JenReadsAlot @TheBookHippie This was my first by her so will check that out! 17h

TheBookHippie @JenReadsAlot I found her because of #FOODANDLIT NIGERIA 17h

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JenReadsAlot @TheBookHippie That makes sense! Looking forward to reading more! 17h

CBee @TheBookHippie I second this! I haven‘t read the 3rd but loved the first two! She‘s amazing. 17h

BarbaraBB I too discovered this author thanks to #CampLitsy! 16h

squirrelbrain Glad you loved it! 🥰 11h

KLyn1 Same - a little less than halfway through... But loving it!! 3h

45 likes8 comments

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