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Kelly_the_Bookish_Sidekick

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

I really enjoyed this mini-series on Netflix which matched up very well with this book which I read with a group here on Litsy awhile ago. And just like the book..is getting very mixed reviews…and is apparently a scandal because they made Cleopatra (gasp) Black. 🙄

I really enjoyed both personally and would recommend.

TheBookHippie Oh good I am planning to watch this weekend !! 2y

TheBookgeekFrau Oh cool. My husband loves Cleopatra; psyched to watch this with him! Thanks for posting about it 😊 2y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @TheBookHippie if I remember correctly, you were in that buddy read with me 😁 2y

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Riveted_Reader_Melissa @TheBookgeekFrau you‘re welcome, I hope you both enjoy it 2y

batsy I haven't read it but I had fun watching it! It was a very stylised drama with modern elements thrown in which was cool to see, and nothing to take too seriously. But I see that that a lot of people have no sense of humour or imagination. A cursory search of the show on twitter only shows me the most appalling racist tweets. 2y

TheBookHippie @Riveted_Reader_Melissa yes I was!!! 2y

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RowReads1

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

The Trader grabs.

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BacklistReader

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

so-so

A Nonfiction about the life of Cleopatra.

I love history in general but one of my favorite places to learn about is ancient Egypt. This has a very easy to understand writing style witch is great because personally textbooks turn me off. I did take a break from reading this one and I think it suffered from that a bit.

I will always be on the look out for more ancient Egyptian nonfiction though.

#nonfiction #cleopatra #ancientegypt #stacyshiff

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BacklistReader

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

Took an unintentional break…. My mental health has not been good and I‘m still adjusting to my new job so I just haven‘t been reading.

Currently I‘m try very slowly to finish Hour of the Witch by Chris Bohjalian and Cleopatra by Stacy Schiff.

Things will get better I know and maybe getting back to posting will help.

#currentlyreading #hourofthewitch #cleopatra #chrisbohjalian #stacyschiff

Alwaysbeenaloverofbooks I hope you‘re feeling better 💛 2y

BacklistReader @Alwaysbeenaloverofbooks thanks 2y

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Bethanyroe

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

pick

I saw that that this has pretty 50/50 mixed reviews, but I liked it. I didn‘t think the author was too over-reaching. It was a well done biography that simultaneously dispels some of the myths surrounding Cleopatra while also exposing how they came into being in the first place.

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

pick

Everything we know about Cleopatra is as it relates to the men in her life. Schiff has done a good job of going through the surviving documents to put together a portrait of a woman that is more than just a sexual temptress. We learn how this Macedonian woman came to rule such a wealthy kingdom and that Egypt was very strong under her rule, but we never truly understand the true motivations behind her actions. If the time period is ⬇️

Kelly_the_Bookish_Sidekick interesting to you, this is a great resource and you‘ll likely learn something, however, you won‘t learn what made Cleopatra tick or deep, dark secrets about her. I also found that this painted a good picture of ancient Egypt and what life might have been like for the Egyptians of the time. 3y

Kelly_the_Bookish_Sidekick January #doublespin book #bookspinbingo @TheAromaofBooks #FoodandLit #Egypt @Butterfinger @Texreader @CatsandBooks #Booked2022 #AboutARealOrFictionalRoyal @cinfhen @4thhouseontheleft @barbarathebibliophage #52Books #ABookBasedOnARealPerson #Pop22 #ABookWithTheNameOfABoardGameInTheTitle
3y

Cinfhen Definitely seems like an interesting read. Cleopatra is a fascinating woman. 3y

TheAromaofBooks Woohoo!!! 3y

TheBookHippie I loved this book! We read it awhile ago with the Shakespeare peeps. 3y

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

This made me laugh. Sadly, it‘s quite accurate.
#cleopatra

BiblioLitten So true!! 3y

GingerAntics @BiblioLitten it‘s sad really 3y

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K.Wielechowski

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

pick

Schiff did a great job delving deep into Cleopatra, instead of painting her as a sex-crazed seductress as many do, the author tried to show her as a human and a ruler, making hard choices and doing what‘s best for her country. Schiff also included primary sources but worked to include the cultural biases the authors would‘ve had.

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HeathHof

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

Thank you at @Maleficentbookdragon for my #bestof2020 ! I am really looking forward to these books and these snacks are the best! 😋
#bestof2020swap Thank you for hosting! @candority

candority Ferrero Rocher chocolates are the best! 4y

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sharread

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

pick

5 shooting stars! Thoroughly enjoyed this excellently well researched novel about Cleopatra. I've read other books by Stacy Schiff and loved them all especially the Salem Witch Trials. This novel isn't a fiction historical one, but one true to story by the research she finds, which is amazing. If you want to learn fascinating facts about Cleopatra this book is one to read. #Review #historical Thank you @Texreader for the book. #MerryChristmas

Crazeedi So you liked? It's been on my tbr, but I heard it was rather dry? Now I want to read!! 4y

Texreader I am so so happy that it found a happy home!! 4y

sharread @Crazeedi It does read like a college book, but I like Stacy's writing style and I'm a documentary nerd. Plus Cleopatra always fascinated me. 4y

Crazeedi @sharread well I'm fascinated by egyptology too, I love documentaries, so I just might like this!! Thank you! 4y

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KimHM

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

Hello Littens! I‘ve been away but now I‘m back.

Alexandria “was neither the first nor the last place in the world where a decline in power translated into an enormity of symbols; as the Ptolemaic influence diminished, the statuary ballooned to hyperbolic dimensions” (71).

📚💙📚💜📚💚📚💛📚🧡📚❤️📚💙📚💜📚

AkashaVampie Welcome back hun! 4y

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Esmerelda1rm

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

pick

1 like

erzascarletbookgasm

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

so-so

This was on hiatus, I picked it up again this month. It‘s interesting, with some vivid prose, & since I knew little of the subject matter & time period, I learnt a lot. Overall I didn‘t have a smooth read - maybe the writing style/tone? focus? repetitiveness? But Schiff tells a good story even without all the details..she provides a glimpse of a fascinating woman who has been shrouded in myths & whom the Romans rendered as a seductress.

Cinfhen, Riveted_Reader_Melissa, alisiakae

Riveted_Reader_Melissa I know the group had very mixed reviews, but I‘m glad you learned a lot, I did too. 5y

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BarbaraTheBibliophage

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

pan

Most of the primary sources of information about Cleopatra are long destroyed. So the author talks about the men in her life, then the time, place, and culture. Anything she tells about Cleopatra seemed like inference and conjecture. It just didn‘t do the trick for me. OTOH, it was a good lead in for the ARC of Jodi Picoult‘s newest.

Full review http://www.TheBibliophage.com
#thebibliophage2020 #booked2020 #thinkpink #cleopatraalife #buddyread

Velvetfur That first sentence you wrote - to me that's heartbreaking, the loss of information, the loss of history, especially about someone so famous at the time and so influential.... I can't take it! 😭 5y

Hooked_on_books That‘s so disappointing. I read her book about the Salem witch trials. The info in it was great, but I found it a bit dry. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage @Velvetfur I know! I wonder what we DON‘T know ... and how it would change our perspective on her life. 5y

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BarbaraTheBibliophage @Hooked_on_books I have that one also. At least for that their are still primary sources available. But I thought Schiff was amazingly misogynistic for a female author. Not in the sense of hating women, but in sooo often painting Cleopatra in the light of men‘s condescending words. 5y

Velvetfur @BarbaraTheBibliophage Exactly! I'm preparing for bed now, maybe I'll dream of Cleopatra! If I do, I'll let you know asap what she tells me 😁 5y

Hooked_on_books Oh that‘s so disappointing. It‘s so frustrating when women do that. We need to support one another, not put each other down! Arg. 5y

JulAnna @Hooked_on_books I heard that about the Salem witch trial book. I was disappointed because I was interested in that one. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage @Velvetfur That‘d be awesome! 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage @Hooked_on_books So true! 5y

Cinfhen So disappointing/ Cleopatra sounds like such a fascinating subject matter 5y

92 likes10 comments

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

so-so

I am so grateful for the group read because I never would have finished this book. I didn‘t like the author‘s style. She‘s pretentious and often assumes you already know so much already, when she throws sentences in with a wink and a nod like we‘re in on her personal remark. But that aside, I learned so much and I‘m glad for it. I generally liked Cleopatra—she wielded power and wealth considerably well under extremely trying times. #cleopatraalife

GingerAntics Love this assessment. 5y

Texreader @GingerAntics Ha! Thanks! I decided not to pan it outright simply because I did learn a lot. Now, I‘m trying to decide what to do with my copy. I think if my daughter doesn‘t want it, someone on Litsy might. It‘s definitely not a keeper. 5y

GingerAntics No, that‘s not really something I‘d want to keep around, either. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage I feel just about the same way. Would‘ve bailed without the group read. But the new Jodi Picoult actually has a lot of satisfying Egyptology in it. So I‘m getting that aspect now! 5y

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Riveted_Reader_Melissa @TheBookHippie @Texreader @BarbaraTheBibliophage @mollyrotondo @mdm139 @Gezemice @erzascarletbookgasm @NeedsMoreBooks @JHgotham @Graywacke @GingerAntics 5y

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

Well, we have come full circle in many ways. When we met Cleopatra she was in exile trying to hold onto her throne and in serious danger of losing both it and her life, and at the end she finds herself back in that unenviable position. She may have ended in a similar position to the one she started with, but the story in between is one we will never forget...even if we will never know all the details. ⤵️

#CleopatraALife

Riveted_Reader_Melissa I blame Octavius for burning so much correspondence. 5y

Graywacke Which section had Herod‘s get of jail free card? Sorry, in my audiobook confusion i can‘t remember. It‘s my favorite line of the book. But overall I question Cleopatra‘s military skills and I think she needed better advisers. Her Antony didn‘t match up to Octavius‘s Agrippa. Seems they were outmaneuvered. 5y

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Riveted_Reader_Melissa I wish I could say that one Roman General played the game better than the other, and that that was the difference...but both ended up dead, one murder, one suicide...so although Egypt always needed the backing of Rome, it was NEVER a safe choice, no matter whom you picked. (edited) 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke I was left thinking Rome was a very fickle mistress. All of it‘s client states were subject to its whims and infighting, and client state rulers were basically damned if they did and damned if they didn‘t. Cleopatra‘s brother killed Caesar‘s enemy, but Caesar didn‘t reward him, he was mad he was killed by a non-Roman, so no matter whether you chose to side with the “ruler” of Rome, your part of the triumvirate, or the new upstart, ... (edited) 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ..you were going to be punished for not sending enough support, the wrong kind of support, to much support. Basically the client “kings” were a great punching bag to blame for any loss or anything else that went wrong. Egypt especially because of its wealth. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa And Herod seemed to get a second chance a few times.... 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke I don‘t remember specifically, but it was along the lines of...I told Anthony to get rid of that woman, but he wouldn‘t listen to me🤷‍♀️ 5y

TheBookHippie I think the watch who you surround yourself with and listen to is everything in this story. It‘s like the a tale as old as time ... also it felt like there was no way out.. catch 22 at every turn. I still admire her greatly and was wondering if I would after reading this. I can‘t imagine being female in this time. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage I‘m glad to have read this in our group! I found Schiff‘s writing boring for a good percentage of the book. Had I not had this #buddyread I probably would have bailed. But since the second half grabbed me more than the first, I would have missed some good stuff. I have a few quotes to post that relate to our own times. Thanks for gathering us @Riveted_Reader_Melissa ! 5y

mollyrotondo This really made me understand how conniving Octavius was because while reading the play I wasn‘t sure of his motives (watching the play made it clearer as well.) He was jealous of Cleopatra and really did not want her to get any credit whatsoever of being a powerful female leader. Most of the conflict was because of petty men (as usual). I thought her suicide was a good “f” you to Octavius. 5y

Jgotham I agree with the other posters that I had a hard time keeping focused as the writing was very stiff for me. I‘m glad we had a buddy read and I would love to continue with history buddy reads:) 5y

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

As I read the last chapter and anticipate how I will review this book, I recall Mom‘s note about it. #momreviews It lacks “sizzle.” I‘ll weigh in tonight or tomorrow when I finish it but I don‘t think Mom‘s too far off the mark here. @Doll8455 #cleopatraalife

GingerAntics Totally agree with Mom. 5y

marleed I love your mom‘s notes! 5y

Reggie I‘ve missed her reviews! 5y

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Texreader @Reggie I‘ll have to let her know. She sent back a bunch of books she‘d read without her post its! She needs to know her fans miss her! 😉 5y

Texreader @marleed Aww thanks!! 5y

Texreader @GingerAntics Yea she was dead on accurate on this one 5y

GingerAntics She really was. 5y

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Riveted_Reader_Melissa #CleopatraALife 5y

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

pick

This book got mixed reviews from my reading group, but I quite enjoyed traveling through what is known about her lifetime & then trying to tease out the rest from conflicting accounts, blank yrs, & copious amounts of propaganda written after her passing. I was left with the overwhelming feeling that humanity‘s view of powerful women is just as conflicted as it ever was & that, as much as her victor wrote her story, he also made her unforgettable.

Riveted_Reader_Melissa #Booked2020 #ArmchairTravel 5y

Cathythoughts Sounds good. Might be good on audio 🤔 5y

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BarbaraTheBibliophage Good review. I agree on your assessment—about to post my own review! Also going to tag my challenge co-hosts for the prompt you completed. @Cinfhen @4thhouseontheleft 🤓 5y

alisiakae This is the same author who wrote Witches, isn‘t it? I have that one on my shelf, but now I want to read this one, too. Great review! (edited) 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @BarbaraTheBibliophage Oh, should I have tagged you 3 on the other prompts as I fill them? 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @4thhouseontheleft Yes, it is the same author. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage @Riveted_Reader_Melissa We always like to pop in and congratulate! But we don‘t count each post for drawing entries—just the summary posts at the end of each season. 😎 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @BarbaraTheBibliophage Gotcha! Thanks! 5y

Cinfhen Good review!! Sorry it wasn‘t a hit. I‘ve always been fascinated by the lure of Cleopatra 5y

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Riveted_Reader_Melissa . @TheBookHippie @Texreader @BarbaraTheBibliophage @mollyrotondo @mdm139 @Gezemice @erzascarletbookgasm @NeedsMoreBooks @JHgotham @Graywacke @GingerAntics 5y

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

What a mess...trapped in marshland in a standoff, and a disastrous sea battle/escape plan. But I‘ll admit the highlight for me here was the deviousness and propaganda employed by both sides, Octavius to brutal effect, all in villinizing a mistress because it was convient (not really because they cared about the relationship. Unfortunately reminded me of the hypocrisy we still see in political maneuvering to this day. 😕

#CleopatraALife

TheBookHippie Is it me or is reading this comforting 🤣🤷🏽‍♀️. It seems like modern day I agree. I do find myself looking up relevant historical things related to where we are reading quite often. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @TheBookHippie I‘m with you, but not necessarily comforting, but humans really have always been stupid 😂, so I guess comforting in the way that this is nothing new to our times....I kept thinking about how Hillary became the boogeyman/she devil to millions, and Trump this religious paragon....all through rumors and messaging. It made me think about her book What Happened... and that at rallies they are still selling Hillary for Prison stuff ⤵️ 5y

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Riveted_Reader_Melissa ...(even though she‘s not running) and yet after all of Pizzagate craziness, it‘s Trump who has connections to Epstein and wishes Maxwell well, but that isn‘t the same kind of scandal. So I guess I‘m saying, it definitely resonated for me this week, but more in the way that we haven‘t advanced much at all. And maybe we were doomed by basing our country on Roman ideals...maybe we should have went with Egyptian. 😂 5y

GingerAntics Ah yes, the more things change, the more they stay the same. There are most definitely parallels between what went on in this chapter and what continues to go on today. 5y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I‘ve actually read two books on this recently. We‘re not a republic or empirical/dictatorship (yet), so there is no real connection with Rome. That‘s a white washing of the facts. Democracy came from the Iraqois Indians. Rome never had a democracy, and even then it was only a republic for a small minority (rich men). I think there are MANY in power right now, including Trump, who very much want a system like Rome, though. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @GingerAntics but we got the rich men who were entitled in a Senate & took sides with whichever way the wind blowed in their favor..so we aren‘t that different. Plus we put in the whole Electoral College to keep the real decision power with the powerful....so I think we copied Roman (in all the bad ways), because we aren‘t really a Democracy, every person gets a vote and they all count equally, and we never really have been, no matter how we like (edited) 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ...to teach kids and tell ourselves. The voter disenfranchisement and suppression, and gerrymandering has always meant some votes counted for more that others. 5y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa that‘s true, but we need to stop telling the lie that democracy came from Rome, too. The core idea, that if actually followed would give equal power to everyone didn‘t come from Europe at all. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage @GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I‘m reading a book about how we vote / electoral college / our not so representative democracy right now and learning a lot of history. I either never learned it or have since forgotten. From the beginning we had fights about whether to be a republic or a democracy. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage One of the things I really got from this chapter was how effective propaganda can be. Octavian really had plenty of material with Antony and Cleopatra, and then he also knew which pieces to turn to his advantage. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage Plus, if we think about how similar it is to today, we can also see that civilization has survived a lot of stupid sh*t. Maybe we will survive our stupid politicians too. 5y

GingerAntics @BarbaraTheBibliophage that‘s true. Let‘s just hope it doesn‘t get as bloody as past occurrences. 🤣😂🤣 (edited) 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage @GingerAntics Good point ... 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @GingerAntics Exactly, we white wash a lot of history, and delude ourselves about many things. Both Rome and Greek weren‘t exactly democratic....not the way we think it should be anyway. @BarbaraTheBibliophage Probably why we settled on a Democratic Republic, and just split the difference, and why fights today are still between Republicans and Democrats, still fighting it out for the upper hand. 😐🙈. As far as bloody or not, after the way... 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ...the last 3 years have gone, I can‘t say we are particularly bloodless. 5y

Texreader @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @TheBookHippie @gingerantics @BarbaraTheBibliophage It was “humorous” watching the two men go at it, both of them idiots in their own ways and it sealed my high opinion of Cleopatra. It seemed she was denigrated for not leaving the fight scene sooner but it was her war in which she had invested her own money, and Antony didn‘t seem to be making sound decisions. I would have stuck around, too. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Texreader Agreed... not only was she denigrated for staying and commanding/encouraging her own troops (who probably wouldn‘t have stayed and fought if she had went home), but then she was pilloried by history when she left, and blamed for Anthony‘s alleged desertion, although the possibility that it was a maneuver that went wrong and they were severed from the land troops in error was interesting. I could see how that could happen at sea, cut .. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ..off with no recourse, and then Octavian reframing it as fleeing and desertion. He seemed to excel at reframing things to his advantage, and most of our history comes from his side and those trying to keep favor with him. 5y

TheBookHippie @Riveted_Reader_Melissa YES!!! All of that!!! 5y

TheBookHippie @BarbaraTheBibliophage Yes my point! Maybe we will survive! Good point on the propaganda. 5y

TheBookHippie @Texreader Agreed! I would have stuck around as well. 5y

TheBookHippie @Riveted_Reader_Melissa oye no we can‘t say bloodless. 5y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics 😬😬😬 5y

mollyrotondo Love people‘s thoughts on the so called democracy. I mean that‘s what Julius Caesar was essentially assassinated for. He was slowly trying to become an emperor and people were not having it. But then Octavian comes along and pretty much does the same thing but in a subtler way so he ends up living a full life ruling Rome as anything but a “for the people” government. Our country pretty works the same way with the wealthy staying in power. 5y

mollyrotondo I also loved the two facts that Shakespeare uses in the play. We learn that Octavian really did fall back on his promise to give Antony more military backing (which Shakespeare uses in Julius Caesar) and we find out that Antony and Cleopatra escapes the battle on the sea together. She did not just leave him like Antony feared in the play. I always wondered if she really deserted him in the play. But in that battle they escaped together. 5y

mollyrotondo And these two quotes are what is wrong with all generations of people from everywhere: “...allow no woman to make herself equal to a man.” And “What does our history mean if it leads to the rule of a woman.” Nothing has changed. (edited) 5y

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

I know some of these words somewhat, seen them in print here & there, & I can decode then in context. However, at some point using big fancy words comes across as “supercilious,” which (I just learned) is a good description of the author‘s style. Halfway thru this chapter I started tracking words I decided to look up rather than assume their meaning. So I got smarter today, but proof again this feels like homework! 😶

GingerAntics 🤣😂🤣 she‘s definitely supercilious!!! I totally agree with that. 🤣😂🤣 5y

LoveToReadLiveToRead Looks like the author swallowed a thesaurus! 5y

Lcsmcat My new word from yesterday: flagitiousness. Used twice within three pages of The Confessions. (It means wicked nastiness.) 5y

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Texreader @Lcsmcat What a word!! If I can figure out how to pronounce I‘m going to have to find a way to work it into my vocabulary. That being said that‘s the kind of word that can be overused very quickly. I think it‘s a big mistake to use memorable words so close together in a book—makes me want to tell the author “go get a thesaurus”! 5y

Lcsmcat @Texreader It makes them jump out when they‘re that close, doesn‘t it! 5y

Texreader @LoveToReadLiveToRead Right!! 5y

Texreader @Lcsmcat Absolutely—to me it interrupts the flow. I stop and look back for its first use thinking why did they do that? 5y

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

While I may not be a big fan of the book, and having practically no knowledge about Cleopatra until reading this book, I really like her. I love how she recognized and used her vast education, as here, where her immense knowledge of languages proved invaluable. I can imagine why the Egyptians loved her so regardless of (lack of) beauty. #cleopatraalife

GingerAntics I completely agree with this. I like Cleopatra. I think a good book about her for young girls would be cool. Cleo is one hell of a female roll model. I just don‘t like this book. I feel it didn‘t do her justice. 5y

Texreader @GingerAntics Keep an eye out for my next post, when I finally finish this chapter (I procrastinate badly with this book‘s assignments). It‘ll give you a laugh. 5y

GingerAntics Oh boy. I‘m ready when you get done. Can‘t wait. 🤣😂🤣 5y

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mollyrotondo

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

pick

⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ I am so happy I finally read this and that I read it after reading Shakespeare‘s Antony and Cleopatra with #shakespearereadalong. It really cleared up a lot of questions I had about Cleopatra deserting Antony in battle and what Octavian‘s character was really like. Really glad to have read this one with @Riveted_Reader_Melissa

Riveted_Reader_Melissa I‘m so glad you enjoyed it. I think you and I might be the only ones who really did (well us and Tm Gunn) at least we had company. Thanks for reading with me! 5y

mollyrotondo @Riveted_Reader_Melissa haha I know! You, me, and Tim Gunn are the same page. I was surprised that so many in our little group didn‘t like it. Still excited for our last couple of discussions! 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo Yes, it was a pretty overwhelming response....I‘m glad I wasn‘t alone in some of those discussions. 😂 5y

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BayouGirl85 I really enjoyed this one. 5y

mollyrotondo @BayouGirl85 oh thank goodness! We have another one on our side @Riveted_Reader_Melissa ! I learned so much from reading this. I don‘t know a lot about this period of history. This made me want to read even more about Mark Antony and Caesar too. 5y

Texreader Wow you are way ahead!! Way to go! 5y

mollyrotondo @Texreader haha I was so behind with all of my buddy read books (not this one though) that I decided to just finish them all this week. So this last week of July I can try to read some other books I I planned on reading this month but haven‘t gotten to yet. This month has been a struggle for some reason. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage I actually have thought about pulling my Shakespeare off the shelf and reading the play after finishing this book. Just to circle back to what started the buddy read in the first place. @Riveted_Reader_Melissa 5y

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

pan

I was not impressed by the supposed scholarship of this work. In fact, I‘d go as far as to say this is more pseudo scholarship. There is no clear thesis, but it seems Schiff is attempting to “restore Cleopatra“ to her rightful place in history (11). Sadly, nowhere in this book does that happen. 👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻

GingerAntics This book has about as much gossip as a celebrity magazine. If that‘s your thing and you want to say you read a book about Cleopatra, knock yourself out. If you want actual scholarship, look elsewhere. 👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻 5y

GingerAntics Schiff talks about the sexism that built up the myth and legend of Cleopatra, but turns around to be supremely sexist to Fulvia, Antony‘s second wife. She describes Fulvia as dying of “incessant meddling” and Cleopatra as “wanton” (154). These were Schiff‘s words, not a quote. So much for telling the story sans sexism. 👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻 5y

GingerAntics This book is far longer than it needs to be. The vast majority of the book isn‘t actually about Cleopatra, but about the men in her life and occasionally how she pulled the strings in their lives to get what she wanted. There is little here that wasn‘t done by Rome 2,000 years ago. 👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻 5y

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GingerAntics Some of the information is interesting - Cleopatra is Greek, not Egyptian; Cleopatra knew Herod of Israel - but there is not nearly enough of that to float this book or justify its length. I won‘t be reading any more by Schiff. @Riveted_Reader_Melissa #StacySchiff #CleopatraALife #Cleopatra #biography 5y

Texreader You finished?? Am I behind or did you decide just to get it over with? I expect to write a similarly review. And no more Schiff for me either. (edited) 5y

GingerAntics @Texreader I decided to get it over with. Your right in schedule. I think we‘re going to be two unpopular opinions on this one. I‘m hoping to read Joyce Tyldesley‘s book on Cleopatra later in the year. She‘s an archaeologist and one of the few sources of Schiff. It seems like it will be better. We will see. 5y

RamsFan1963 @GingerAntics Have you read When Women Ruled The World: Six Queens of Egypt by Kara Cooney? Cleopatra is only a small part of the book, but I think you'd like it. 5y

GingerAntics @RamsFan1963 I have not, but it looks much more up my alley. Thanks for the recommendation!!! 5y

16 likes8 comments

Oy
@Riveted_Reader_Melissa #StacySchiff #CleopatraALife #Cleopatra #biography

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

BarbaraTheBibliophage Wut?? Sigh. (I know I read that, but it didn‘t grab me in the book.) 5y

GingerAntics @BarbaraTheBibliophage this book had some things in it that were legitimately stereotypical toward women. This was just one. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage I just read the new ARC from Kate Manne. It comes out next week. Would be a good antidote to Schiff.

Entitled: How Male Privilege Hurts Women

11 likes3 comments

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

Yes, men are so powerless. Women walk by and they just can‘t help themselves.
🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️
Once again, a mentality that still plagues humanity is begun.
@Riveted_Reader_Melissa #StacySchiff #CleopatraALife #Cleopatra #biography

BarbaraTheBibliophage Ugh 5y

GingerAntics @BarbaraTheBibliophage yeah, this (and other comments like this) were a big part of why I didn‘t like this book. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage @GingerAntics I agree. She just encourages the mindset. 🙇🏼‍♀️ 5y

GingerAntics @BarbaraTheBibliophage exactly. It was unfortunate, really. 5y

11 likes4 comments

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

And thus prejudice that still plagues the world was begun. 🤦🏼‍♀️
@Riveted_Reader_Melissa #StacySchiff #CleopatraALife #Cleopatra #biography

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

I can get behind this.
@Riveted_Reader_Melissa #StacySchiff #CleopatraALife #Cleopatra #biography

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

Cleopatra if she were alive today.
@Riveted_Reader_Melissa #StacySchiff #CleopatraALife #Cleopatra #biography

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

It‘s been a heckuva week so I‘m trying to read the last 10 pages of the assigned chapter to catch up. We are learning a lot about Mark Antony in this chapter so thought I‘d include this photo from the book.

GingerAntics This chapter was a bit more interesting, if not any shorter. 5y

Texreader @GingerAntics I agree 5y

47 likes2 comments

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

But sadly, it was not to be....

#CleopatraALife

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Riveted_Reader_Melissa, GingerAntics

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

Off to Parthia in this chapter, but boy is Anthony an idiot, and somehow Cleopatra gets the blame, meanwhile we have actual letters from Herod‘s mother-in-law to Cleopatra and back, but no other letters....That‘s a really odd coincidence though, right? ...the only letters to survive connect her with a defunct scheme of another “conniving” woman, almost like they survived to implicate her more. And then Anthony and Cleopatra... ⤵️

#CleopatraALife

Riveted_Reader_Melissa .... throw a party with all the children, divvying up land that isn‘t conquered yet and if it was, belonged to Rome. This is not going to end well... @TheBookHippie @Texreader @BarbaraTheBibliophage @mollyrotondo @mdm139 @Gezemice @erzascarletbookgasm @NeedsMoreBooks @JHgotham @Graywacke @GingerAntics (edited) 5y

Graywacke Leave it up to the vagaries of warfare. Herod does come out fascinating. He has so little power here. 5y

GingerAntics It‘s certainly interesting to see Cleopatra and Herod linked. I didn‘t know they ever knew each other. 5y

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mollyrotondo Did anyone notice that it was hinted that Antony was a pedophile? 🤢 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo I didn‘t take it so much as that, but Roman men/soldiers, with younger men in their orbits...wasn‘t exactly a secret...maybe it was all the long campaigns, far from home, with only the other soldiers for company, for years at a time. There were only so many foreign queens to seduce after all. 🙊 I honestly don‘t think sex was seen the same way it is today. 😬 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @GingerAntics Apparently knew and despised! 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke but yet he made out pretty well, admittedly by killing everyone around him, but still.. 5y

GingerAntics Right? There was clearly no love loss there. Then again, from the sounds of it, he was getting his fill of strong women at home. 5y

mollyrotondo @Riveted_Reader_Melissa just hated that Dellius was trying to recruit a 16 year old as a sexual partner for Antony. And Antony sends for the boy after seeing his picture. Herod is the one to stop it from happening. That whole part made me look at Antony differently. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage Yay—this chapter‘s political shenanigans were a lot more interesting than endless military campaigns. And more Cleopatra is better. Plus, right, that Alexandra is a piece of work. As, of course, is Herod. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo I think that when they all lived shorter lives, they started younger...Alexander the Great was a General at 16, master of the world by 20. Cleopatra at 18 was married to her 10 year old brother. Very different times. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @BarbaraTheBibliophage Right! Talk about a complicated family! 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo Also, their life expectancy was so short. And, no Victorian morals. Look at Greek and Roman gods ... definitely not on the same page as later humanity in terms of morals. And that‘s who (or what) our characters looked up to and emulated. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage @Riveted_Reader_Melissa Gah! Yes! 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @BarbaraTheBibliophage oh gods yes... they were always kidnapping, raping, taking the forms of animals and raping...crazy stuff! 5y

Texreader @mollyrotondo Yea I picked up on the pedophilia-like reference. 5y

Texreader @BarbaraTheBibliophage I agree this chapter was much more interesting—up there with chapter 2, when we were in the honeymoon stage and thought the whole book would be like that. 😉 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage @Texreader Haha. Not a honeymoon book, for sure. 🤪 5y

mollyrotondo @Texreader I‘m glad you saw it too. It‘s the thing that stood out to me in this chapter lol 5y

34 likes19 comments

Graywacke

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

so-so

The Ptolemaic empire founded after Alexander came to end here, with this queen, as Octavius Caesar strolled into Alexandria on August 1, 30 bce. He then obscured the story and we‘re left to wonder.

This was a nice follow-up to Shakespeare, but a mixed animal. The scholarship seems to be there, but guidance through all the unknowns felt unsatisfying.

#CleopatraALife
#shakespearereadalong

46 likes

Cleopatra: Last Queen of Egypt

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

I had to shake my head at this chapter fellow readers, as Anthony is off portraying Dionysus (Bacchus) the god of wine, women, and song...and basically wild revelry & fertility. Cleopatra, who later finally appears, then joins in and keeps him happy, is the instigator and exotic seductress leading him astray, and yet Octavia who is later in the same position is a great wife and calming influence on him. I guess it all goes to show that it...⤵️

Riveted_Reader_Melissa Only really matters how good your press agent is after the fact. 😂. But I was left wondering how Anthony & Cleopatra became “the great lovers” and not Julius & Cleopatra. She seemed to care much more for Julius, even went and stayed in Rome for him. For Anthony she‘s seems much more just playing a part, living up to his expectations and trying to keep the current Roman in charge of her area of the world happy. 🤷‍♀️ 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @TheBookHippie @Texreader @BarbaraTheBibliophage @mollyrotondo @mdm139 @Gezemice @erzascarletbookgasm @NeedsMoreBooks @JHgotham @Graywacke @GingerAntics #CleopatraALife (edited) 5y

mollyrotondo @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I remember the author saying something in this chapter about how writers at the time wanted to keep Julius Caesar‘s reputation in good standing because he was so honored and did not want to dwell too much on his relationship with a woman that the Romans detested. But Antony was not as well liked so writers didn‘t feel the need to hide is relationship with such a woman. I‘ll have to find the exact quote. 5y

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Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo I know exactly the one you mean, I think I highlighted it! 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo Is this the one? “We hear more of Antony‘s conquest than of Caesar‘s for the simple reason that the chroniclers were as eager to discourse on one as they were reluctant to discourse on the other. As Antony must appear the lesser man, Cleopatra becomes a more powerful woman.” 5y

mollyrotondo Page 178 “We hear more of Antony‘s conquest than of Caesar‘s for the simple reason that the chroniclers were as eager to discourse on one as they were reluctant to discourse on the other. As Antony must appear the lesser man, Cleopatra becomes a more powerful woman. She played in 41 not only to a different audience, but to a different choir.” 5y

mollyrotondo @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I just typed this out at the same time as you hahaha 😂 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo Did you have it highlighted too? 😂 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo Either way, yes... I could definitely feel that switch in this chapter. She came to Rome to be with Julius, and little was said or written, and definitely not about how he captivated and ensnared a young queen. But a few years later, she‘s summoned to Anthony, delays for awhile, and then comes in the best way to possibly gain his favor (appealing to his party style) and yet she corrupted him. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo Great minds think alike! 5y

mollyrotondo @Riveted_Reader_Melissa it was not a very long time in between men but circumstances and people‘s views had changed so much that it really rings true. She was in front of a different choir of writers and critics so she was written into Antony‘s downfall as a main cause. Caesar she was just another woman. But Antony she was using her magic on him. Antony also outright did what Cleopatra asked him which also made her stand out more in Antony story 5y

mollyrotondo @Riveted_Reader_Melissa yes great minds! 5y

mollyrotondo @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I also find the part about Fulvia very interesting. She was sort of equal to Antony politically speaking. And it makes sense now why she was involved in the fighting while Antony was in Alexandria in the Shakespeare play. She gets briefly mentioned for really screwing up the war but it didn‘t make sense to me why she was giving orders. This explains her role much more clearly. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo Yes, she got fleshed out a lot more here, and I was glad the Cleopatra author actually took some time with both her and Octavia. I understood all their roles a lot more, and it seemed Anthony favored some for one reason, another for another, but liked & benefited from whomever he was with at the time. Between the 3 of them, Cleopatra just seems to be a fun stop & Alexandra a place to play around before returning to his real life/war 5y

GingerAntics I noticed a lot of sexism and cliches in this chapter. She‘s just the seductress. She‘s just seducing him to get what she wants from him. Fulvia died of incessant meddling. 🙄 I had to double check if a man or woman wrote this book. Then I double checked that she didn‘t tag team that chapter with someone else. What happened to Cleopatra really wasn‘t all those things she‘s known for today? 5y

mollyrotondo @Riveted_Reader_Melissa oh yes Cleopatra was like his “good time girl” especially with all that opulence. But it sounds like it wasn‘t just Cleopatra who got screwed in the history books. These women weren‘t given enough credit either. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @GingerAntics @mollyrotondo I felt like that was the core of this chapter. The guys are known in multiple sources as having done xyz (philandering, partying, etc), but the women are written down in the history that survives as warlike, seductress, the perfect wife. This book is a female author, but all the sources that remain were written by men. I feel like this author is pointing out those distinctions in how each was recorded by the male... 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ...history writers of their day. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa Fulvia was a skilled strategist, but got recorded as warmongering, Cleo is the seductress, but the author points out how much strategy went into that...and Octavia also played her part perfectly, even if it was just to keep Anthony off the front, away from glories, Rome, Cleopatra, all of thee above most likely and most importantly out of Octavius‘s way. (edited) 5y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa if she‘s not going to produce anything different than the male historians of their/her day, why say she was going to produce a more accurate portrait of Cleopatra? She‘s debunked the seductress myth in some places and then reiterated it in others. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @GingerAntics Well I don‘t think she can just come up with new sources, not after all this time....but I think by showing what was written, and then laying out the facts that Anthony had already set up a whole party theme in every city he‘d been in, that she delayed answering his summons for awhile, and then made sure to arrive with enough fanfare, etc to meet him exoticism for exoticism means she was strategic. She played him like a fiddle, ... (edited) 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ...basically 1 upped him at his own game, and all to secure Egypt under a new Rome ruler of the area. She may have played the part of the seductress more here, but because that was what was needed to win over Anthony and secure his support. If Octavius had been in charge of Egypt, the tactic would have been very different. I took it as she‘s known historically as “the great seductress”, but it was all a tactic, and not her tactic for every... (edited) 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ...situation, just a specific Anthony one, who lived for that lifestyle. 5y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa okay, I‘ll give you that. That still doesn‘t excuse “no one knows why Fulvia died. It was probably from incessant meddling.” I‘ve noticed that Schiff is an essayist and editor. I have another book about Cleopatra written by an archaeologist/Egyptologist. I‘m interesting in how these two books - one mainstream writer, one academic writer, both woman, both claiming to tell the true story - differ. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @GingerAntics That does sound interesting. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @GingerAntics Honestly I thought the “incessant meddling” was just another quote from one of the men at the time, just like the “she died out of spite for Anthony leaving her while she was sick”. The men of history weren‘t (and still aren‘t) kind to strong women. 5y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa this is the other book I have. I haven‘t even opened it. I‘m tempted to see what it would take to read this one side by side with Schiff‘s book (so I finished at the same time) to compare.

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa the Tyldesley book has 9 chapters, and intro and a conclusion-type-thing. We only have 3 chapters left. I‘d really have to floor it to finish both at the same time. I may have to settle for reading one after the other. 5y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa Schiff has Tyldesley in her “selected bibliography,” and the rest of her sources are all contemporary. She‘s used entirely secondary and tertiary sources. That didn‘t make me feel too confident in Tyldesley‘s book until I looked at her bibliography, which is split up between “classical texts” and “further reading” (modern texts) and is significantly longer. I have some hope for it. (edited) 5y

mollyrotondo @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @GingerAntics I took comments like “incessant meddling” as Schiff being sarcastic and rolling her eyes at what the men who documented these events thought of these women. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage @GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo I‘m on board with your thoughts, both about the content and style of the book. I liked hearing about some other women, as comparison to Cleo. I am completely not interested in warring, but I like the political aspects of the time. And the odd man that is Antony / Dionysus. But Schiff is just boring me to pieces, overall. I‘m very, very glad we have only 2 chapters left. 5y

GingerAntics @BarbaraTheBibliophage don‘t we have 3 left? 7, 8 and 9. Still, just three chapters left is way better than “hey, we‘re only half way.” 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @BarbaraTheBibliophage @GingerAntics yep, 3 left. But if you want to read ahead and finish it up, feel free. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage @GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa Gah ... even more ... 🤪 But thankfully that only amounts to about 125 pages. Her notes section looks quite large. 5y

GingerAntics @mollyrotondo I suppose. That‘s one way to look at it. I can‘t really read it that way, personally. The tone of the book isn‘t sarcastic. She hasn‘t used sarcasm anywhere else in the book. There is no evidence around that area that shows any sign of it being sarcastic. It‘s quite rare to find sarcasm in academic style writing, and it‘s even rarer for someone to pull it off. I‘m just not getting sarcasm anywhere in this. It might jazz it up a bit. 5y

GingerAntics @BarbaraTheBibliophage I definitely plan to skip her notes section. The rest of the book has been boring and long winded. I think I‘m going to avoid any unnecessary reading of Schiff. 5y

Graywacke Finally commenting. @GingerAntics helped me figure out where I am. I‘m on chapter 9 and will finish this week. 5y

Graywacke Thoughts that come to mind. Regarding why we associate Antony instead of Julius with Cleopatra ( @Riveted_Reader_Melissa ), Schiff will bring up the politics of having Cleopatra a clean villain to motivate an army while she was with Antony. And I‘ll add that Octavius owed his position to Julius Caesar and to JC overlooking his own son with Cleopatra. Both mean that Octavius, the winner, defined the narrative as was best for him. (edited) 5y

Graywacke On sexist history - it‘s a fundamental aspect of all history, it‘s entirely sexist. For whatever reason we have had a couple thousand years of male-dominated power players and a male-dominated “intellectual” world that combined to write and control the history. Cleopatra and Fulvia didn‘t have a chance. But, see Shakespeare, even Octavia, the good woman, gets played down. She was no passive player. Very frustrating ... 5y

Graywacke ... especially to those of us who want the real story. 5y

Graywacke Last thought- I have more issues with Schiff on this topic. If I‘m writing this I‘m always making it clear that this is a “as far as we know” story. That hasn‘t been popular for at least 25 years (see Erik Larsen 🙄) Making history sound perfectly accurate, a story, is a thing. Schiff does a little of both. The mixture is confusing. I‘m constantly asking myself, “does she really believe this or is she just reporting?” I don‘t like ... 5y

Graywacke ... being so uncertain where the author stands. I‘m never sure if I should be slyly smiling with her, or stomping my foot in disagreement. ☺️ 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke Good point about Octavius. All the accounts left are ones that would have pleased and exulted his story and claim. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke I bet on audio it‘s even harder to tell what‘s requoted from somewhere else and what she might be slyly smiling about. It‘s hard in print, but at least I have the benefit of some things being in quotation marks. 😏 5y

Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa and references. I can‘t look them up! 😳 Good point. Unless she says “Plutarch wrote” or something similar, I have no idea which sources she is basing her narrative off of. 5y

40 likes45 comments

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

I have to just smile & shake my head at this... both men were know philanderers, documented affairs across a continent, but yet the queen who had children with both (but no record of being with anyone else) was the wicked seductress of all the stories to come, that led them astray. Makes me think times haven‘t changed much in all the interning centuries, men get to be conquering capable playboys with game, women slut shamed. 🙄

#CleopatraALife

39 likes

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

This author! She recognized that Roman historians may have been hyper-critical of women, but then she herself had this to say about Antony‘s wife upon her death.

GingerAntics Right? Hello, Pot? This is Kettle calling. 5y

Texreader @GingerAntics 👏🏻👏🏻🤣 5y

GingerAntics I do not like this author. The book is a little more palatable in audio. There was still a lot of eye rolling and sighing during moments like this one. I just don‘t know with this author. 5y

Texreader @GingerAntics I‘ve come to the very same conclusion. I just don‘t like her style. But I still appreciate learning stuff I didn‘t know (and will likely promptly forget). 5y

GingerAntics It‘s so easy to lose the good information mixed in with the stuff that has nothing to do with the topic at hand and the shockingly sexist comments. 5y

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

@Graywacke I don‘t know if audible will let you see how far you are along the entire book, but if it does, here are the starting points of each chapter. Maybe this will help you figure out how far ahead you are.

Graywacke This is really helpful 5y

GingerAntics @Graywacke oh good! I‘m just sorry I didn‘t think to check the library for this audiobook sooner...for some many reasons (but this is one of them). 5y

12 likes2 comments

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa #StacySchiff #CleopatraALife #Cleopatra #biography 5y

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

Found the audiobook for this on Libby. I‘m hoping this helps me get through the chapters a little better. I can listen faster than I can read.
@Graywacke oddly enough, this one has tracks divided by the chapters of the book. Some chapters, like this week‘s, have two tracks. I have 18 tracks. How many do you have? Maybe I can share my track list and it will help. They all have time signatures of their beginnings, so that could help.

Graywacke I have 17 tracks. 5y

Graywacke I‘m on #15 which is 54:34 long and so far is on the brink of the battle of Actium. 5y

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GingerAntics @Graywacke mine don‘t list lengths, they list how many hours:minutes:seconds into the book each track starts at. You have one less track though. Now I‘m really confused. Mine is read by Robin Miles, is your narrator the same? 5y

GingerAntics @Graywacke I honestly expected you to have one more track than I did, since my first track is “Ashed Audio presents” but is also the first chapter. Hm. 5y

Graywacke @GingerAntics Robin Miles is the narrator for my copy too. Same recording just Libby-audible inconsistency. (And I do wonder why they can‘t pronounce Hachette like it‘s spelled. 🙂) 5y

GingerAntics @Graywacke oh my... they couldn‘t find someone to tell Miles how to pronounce it properly? Wow. 5y

Graywacke @GingerAntics that‘s how they actually pronounce it, with a soft ch. “hashette” or “ashette”. 5y

Graywacke @GingerAntics so my “chapter 16” starts out by saying “chapter 9”. So I think I just finished chapter 8. Which chapter is next in the discussion? 5y

GingerAntics @Graywacke 6... you‘re good for the next few weeks, actually. 5y

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

Above “a reconstruction of Alexandria, looking west down the Canopic Way. The colonnade ran the length of the city”

This chapter is about how the best laid plans can come to nought. A rising leader...murdered, a tight alliance...gone, a pregnancy on Roman soil...lost, and through it all Cleopatra survives and manages to endure the tumult, some losses sure, but she‘s still standing while Rome fights itself.

#CleopatraALife

Riveted_Reader_Melissa
@GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @Texreader @BarbaraTheBibliophage @mollyrotondo @mdm139 @Gezemice @erzascarletbookgasm @NeedsMoreBooks @JHgotham @Graywacke (edited) 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa I couldn‘t help but wonder what would have happened if Octavius had gone to Cleopatra after Mark Anthony spurned him, had they formed a new alliance, him as heir, her navy and armies, for a new “special relationship” with Rome, what could have happened then. And wow, is Anthony and Octavius‘s relationship different then it was written in Shakespeare‘s Julius Caesar, much closer to the one in Anthony & Cleopatra. Mark Anthony was a mess 😂 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke I posted a bunch of quotes from this chapter, so it might give you a hint where your audiobook lines up....hopefully. 5y

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GingerAntics I felt like very little of this chapter was actually about Cleopatra. It was more about the men of Rome tripping over themselves to prove their manhood. I agree that the snippets of Cleopatra from the Arab world were very interesting. I would have far preferred a chapter diving into that. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @GingerAntics I agree...this chapter was basically how Julius Caesar (the murder, and fallout) affected Cleopatra (who was completely left out of that story (at least in Shakespeare‘s version). It was a lot about Rome, but since we know their troubles end up on her doorstep, and led to her downfall, I think it was necessary to understand what comes next with Mark Anthony and Octavius...two people whose animosity will directly effect her. 5y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I agree it was necessary, but I think it could have been handled better. This is supposed to be about her, after all, and it really doesn‘t feel like it in places. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @GingerAntics It‘s very disconcerting how the record (mostly from Rome) goes silent when they become involved in their own affairs and forget about her for a bit.... I wish there were more Egyptian sources, and I can‘t help wondering why their aren‘t. Maybe some of that was lost when the library was lost? But even the author comments, that without a Roman in the room, there doesn‘t seem much to be said. 5y

mollyrotondo I loved learning more about what happened right after Julius Caesar‘s murder. It helps me understand the relationship between Mark Antony and Octavius better. And Cleopatra did get roped into fighting Cassius. She sent her navy to Dolabella that got wiped out. And tried to send ships to Octavius. The entire time being approached by Cassius and continuously refusing to join his side. So this war was her war too. I found it fascinating. 5y

mollyrotondo I also thought the description of Cicero was great! She said he was the Roman John Adams. He was so embarrassed for socializing with her and having people know that he socialized with her because people knew he asked her for a book. And then he holds this unwarranted hate for her all because he knew she was a powerful female leader but didn‘t want to admit it. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage I agree with @GingerAntics that it‘s frustrating how little of this is actually about Cleopatra. For all the power and wealth she had, and even though Egyptian women had more status than those in Rome, she‘s still marginalized. 5y

GingerAntics @BarbaraTheBibliophage including by this author it feels like. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage @GingerAntics Right! Why call it a book about her if you don‘t actually tell her story? I wonder what possessed Schiff to focus on a woman about whom there‘s very little written? And then produce nearly 400 pages? 🤷🏼‍♀️ 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo I‘m with you, I‘m enjoying this fascinating look at how she juggled all sides in this conflict. And Cicero, I think he spent enjoyable time with her when Julius Caesar was on the rise, and she was a Queen with his ear...after his murder though it feels like he couldn‘t condemn her or distance himself fast enough. Hw didn‘t want to offend whoever ruled Rome next, or couldn‘t afford to. So suddenly it was all, I never liked .... (edited) 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ...her, don‘t impune my good name by saying we spent time together, I only wanted to talk to her to get a book for my library, honest that‘s the ONLY reason I associated with her, and you know what, she never even delivered.🙄 5y

GingerAntics @BarbaraTheBibliophage no idea. I‘ve seen other scholars do a lot with little evidence. It goes one of two ways: 1. Like this (ie not well), or 2. They stick to what they have and extrapolate what they don‘t have evidence for from what they do (they‘re honest upfront about the educated guesses and move on). The second is almost always preferable, but the author/scholar does have to be careful to not take it a step too far. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage @GingerAntics Exactly so. 5y

BarbaraTheBibliophage @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo I do think I detested Cicero more and more with each story ... what a nasty gadfly. 5y

mollyrotondo @Riveted_Reader_Melissa This chapter is very important to set up her relationship with Mark Antony too. This conflict leads to them meeting and ultimately to their downfall. So understanding what is going on in Rome would end up in any Cleopatra story. 5y

Texreader @BarbaraTheBibliophage @gingerantics I‘m with you both about this. This book feels like it‘s about everything but her except tangentially. And I hate how this author sometimes throws out a fact here and there with no background, assuming we are well-grounded already in the history. I don‘t think she‘s a very good nonfiction writer, especially while reading The Alps, which is so well written in comparison 5y

GingerAntics @Texreader I agree with that. Maybe modern equation readers are familiar with these events. Maybe modern peoples in the Mediterranean in general have covered this in school. Americans, no way. We need to be given some background here. I agree. I don‘t think she‘s that good at this. Perhaps this was meant for other scholars, but it‘s on a major press (as opposed to a university press) so I doubt that. 5y

Texreader @GingerAntics I‘m just so shocked by the praise it received. In this day and age, there‘s so many good nonfiction writers. I think you described it so well about the options a writer has and she took the less desirable option. Is there so little about cleopatra out there that perhaps it overwhelmed the critics? I don‘t know. It was an ok chapter. It just wasn‘t about the book‘s namesake 5y

GingerAntics @Texreader it would have been a good chapter to have while reading Julius Caesar, certainly. Having the artistic expression of it, side-by-side with the historical account would have been valuable and given an interesting dimension to our discussions. 5y

Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa thank you so much for the quotes and images. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo You and I are apparently in the minority here. 🤷‍♀️ Every reader is different. But I‘m enjoying it @GingerAntics I think she‘s telling what‘s going on in Rome, but she also says what was going on with Cleopatra, how she left for home, probably quickly, reasserted herself as goddess and quickly added her son in the god-like propaganda to protect him, how she tried to avoid helping the assassins when they called for aid, but sent... (edited) 5y

Graywacke My first thought on the aftermath of Caesar‘s story is think, why did she run away so soon? (I say this as wishful thinking. She probably had to.) If only she could have got to know Octavius (and his advisers), she could have made a more informed decision. Alas, she was left to winds of history (edited) 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ...to Cicero‘s ex son-in-law even if it never arrived. So I actually saw her a lot, even while Rome was a bit to busy to write a lot about her. I wonder if we‘d have more from the Egyptian POV of the library of Alexandria wasn‘t destroyed, and other forces weren‘t intent on casting her legacy in a certain way. 5y

Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa A thought on the missing sources: the tragedy of history is we lost almost everything in the dark ages. Europe preserved some Latin. But all the classical sources in other languages were almost entirely lost, except for the small scraps the (heroic?) Arabs were able to preserve. So, when we wonder where Cleopatra‘s record is, forget Europe. What were the Arab concerns? Why would they care about this loser Egyptian empire? 5y

Graywacke (And why didn‘t they save Sappho?!! 😭 ) 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke I agree, the wind was in the right direction, so waiting too long might have stranded her in Rome. And as a whole, she and her son would be much safer with her own armies and navy to protect them. Plus, she probably had to worry before Julius Caesar‘s will was read that Octavius and Caesarean might have been in competition, and knowing how that was resolved in Egyptian families, her son & heir was best far FAR away. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke Even when they did care, much of their own records and history was looted and burned during the Crusades too. 5y

Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa ( @mollyrotondo @GingerAntics ) I‘m with your take on this. Cleopatra is there, but we need a lot of context. I‘m warming to it overall. I think Schiff prefers to work within the facts and tries to lead the reader to the conclusions indicated, but also tries to avoid sweeping summaries of implication. ... 👇👇 5y

Graywacke This topic - we‘re used to writers waxing to fill in all holes. She keeps a little more sedate. It works to a degree, if imperfectly, and if a little unsatisfying. Still, I‘m gaining something and I‘m entertained enough to keep at it. 5y

Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I‘m not familiar with what the Crusaders destroyed. (Bastards!) Certainly medieval and counter-reformation Christianity were not friendly to pagan preservation ... or to powerful women. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke And I‘m not sure with the amount of history that has passed and the lack of records from contemporaries (lots destroyed or written by her political enemies), I think she did as good a job as anyone could...she‘ll tell you outright that there should have been a lot about Cleopatra‘s voyage home, but without a Roman in the room, we have no records. She‘ll tell you what the Talmud says, and why some seems questionable and other parts... 5y

Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa Caesarian was a mixed blessing. Without Caesar, and with that curious will, he becomes a liability...unless Octavius can be discarded. (Have to wonder why Antony didn‘t doctor the will in his own favor ??) 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ...more likely based on what other leaders were into at that time. I think overall given the dearth of info or conflicting info written years later, she‘s pieced things together pretty well.🤷‍♀️ 5y

Graywacke Another thought from this section. Cleopatra‘s armies were completely inept. All that money and they failed to accomplish anything. She could have directed the course of history if she could have matched Cassius... 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke I‘m not familiar either, I wonder if anyone is...the greatest way for the victors to rewrite history in their favor, throughout history, seems to just burn everything else to ashes. 5y

Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa Maybe. I‘m a little mixed, but it is a tough basket of tattered info to work with. I do appreciate that aspect. How do you argue with Plutarch when we have his words and not the other side? Or Cicero? 5y

Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I‘m a post behind, always. Sorry. Pertaining to victors - that was ultimately the biggest flaw in Cleopatra‘s historical record. She lost, and the Romans had ~400 more years to write their own story. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke Nope, I agree. I thought the author did a good job with what was available to work with. I know some of the other readers feel like there isn‘t enough Cleopatra in the story, but I appreciate that it isn‘t fiction and she‘s only telling us what can be priced together, or the options possible from that information and what is most likely. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke Sorry about that too. I‘ll answer the Caesarian part. Yes! I don‘t think she knew what the will said when she left. If it named Caesarian, he was in danger of assassination too, if people even thought he could be named (a non-Roman controlling that much Roman wealth), he was in danger of assassination. So best to be away and quickly with people she could trust. And considering that all of Rome seemed to be rioting after Julius‘s... 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ..death, even executing the wrong person (I love that that made it into Shakespeare‘s version), it was probably safer overall for them to get back to more stable areas with people they trusted. After she and Caesarian were safe, then she could wait to see how it all shock out...maybe Octavius would die in this free-for-all leaving Julius heirless. Maybe he‘d be Caesar and she‘d have to work with him going forward since Egypt always needed to... 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ...be friendly with Rome. But overall I think she needed to keep her options open. Her brother (first husband) found out early that it didn‘t pay to back the wrong Roman, or even the right one if the next RomN in charge thought you had overstepped your bounds. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa I don‘t think Anthony cared...apparently he‘d spent all the money already anyway! 😂 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke As far as Cassius, I think she had to strategize that if she opposed Cassius, and then Rome backed him as the next leader...her whole kingdom would be done. Between her father and brother‘s experience she may not have wanted to help Julius‘s assassin, but she couldn‘t outright oppose him either, so she did the best she could, stalled, made excuses, and hoped the Romans would kill each other. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa I also found it interesting, the gall really of all these infighting Romans to all call on her for supplies and men. If they‘d had their way, she‘d have been fighting all their wars, on both sides while they sat and directed. 5y

Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa very odd to have to support the assassin the father of your son - regarding her position with Cassius. As for using Cleopatra, Schiff implies all the main Romans were low on money and she had a lot of it. 👇👇 5y

Graywacke It seems she never tried to work with Octavius, who you would think would be worth trying to control. I think she really wanted Caesarian in power and ultimately Octavius was what she saw as the main obstacle. She knew Antony could fight and with him she could back a winner against Octavius... well, I haven‘t gotten to what happens next. 5y

mollyrotondo @Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa Cleopatra also left Rome because she was hoping the Romans would just destroy themselves and then her son could take the throne. She wanted to stay out of it at the start. It was Cassius who started to rope her in and make her feel like she had to take a side. 5y

mollyrotondo @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I know it seems like you and I are enjoying this much more than our fellow read along members 😂 @Graywacke is getting something out of it though! I am learning so much about this time period and I think it‘s all laid out in a very easy to follow way. I understand all of these historic figures so much more now. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke There also a time problem...she left Rome when the wind was right, and most likely for safety....Octavius did not show up until after she had left, and after the will was read, and at least long enough that Anthony could have squandered his inheritance which must have taken at least a little while. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo Right, he‘s pressuring her to take his side and fund him yet he murdered her son‘s father? Then he‘s mad she doesn‘t sent aid. 🤔 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo Agreed, I‘m breezing through the chapters usually. I‘ll admit I could have done without the baldness cure attributed to her, or the Egyptian methods of contraception... but I still find them interesting and often humorous asides. Her sister and her are at each other‘s throats for the thrown, but historians have them trading contraception hints, play down the deadly strategic queens angle, but just sisters with “girlie talk” 😂 5y

mollyrotondo @Riveted_Reader_Melissa haha oh I know! I like this though because it shows what was important to attribute a woman to: not her brain or her cunning but her contribution to womanly problems. Uhh this is the problem with men writing the narrative. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo Plus it probably played into her being a seductress, who trapped Caesar with her exotic womanly wiles, and turned his head. She knew everything their was to know about womanly wiles and therefore contraception. 5y

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

The little snippets we get of her story from non-Roman sources are interesting, I wish there were more of them. And isn‘t it odd that the Talmud mentions her more then Julius Caesar in his own biography!

#CleopatraALife

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

#CleopatraALife

Graywacke Ok, well it was propaganda, but also gorgeous. Wow. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke Considering the propaganda on both sides, I have to give her credit for the best Isis propaganda! 😂 5y

Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa 🙂 5y

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

She was always cannily able to shift even the worst setbacks into a positive spin....

#CleopatraALife

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

She had played the game well, but Caesar faltered. I found myself understanding the backstory from our Julius Caesar #ShakespeareReadAlong even better with this background of his rise and fall in Rome, and the battles that ensued, I even got more background on Fulvia from Cleopatra & Anthony and the battles of the triumvirate. 😉

All that by 26!

#CleopatraALife

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

😂 I loved that!

It‘s all about the size of your library people!

#CleopatraALife

37 likes

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

#CleopatraALife

Graywacke These are wonderful! (Since they are too small to see of my phone, I used my laptop to zoom in.) 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa There are a few great pictures in my physical book, I haven‘t seen any in the ebook version yet, and I know those on audible are missing out....so I wanted to share a few @Graywacke 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke what I do on my phone, is take a screenshot, then you can go into your photos and zoom in there. 5y

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Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa oh my...that is brilliant. You‘re my hero! 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke 😂 You‘re welcome! Glad I could help. 5y

erzascarletbookgasm I am terrible at read alongs, Melissa. I must confess I‘ve only read Chapter 1 and got distracted by other books. I‘ll catch up soon and go back to look at what you all have discussed 😔 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @erzascarletbookgasm Everyone‘s different. And we have a few people just reading or listening straight through and discussing when they can... so whatever works for you. 5y

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff, Schiff

Whew! Finished my assigned reading for our group read #cleopatraalife so now I can go about my day without worrying with it. It does feel like homework! Especially since this latest chapter barely mentioned our heroine at all! But as @GingerAntics and I discussed, we‘re committed!

GingerAntics 🍪🍪🍪 you get a cookie (or three), for finishing your reading assignment!!! That‘s the perfect way to describe it, by the way. 🤣😂🤣 5y

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Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

🤬🤦🏼‍♀️😴
I‘ve finished this week‘s chapter. If I‘m being honest, I would be done with this book after that chapter if it wasn‘t for the buddy read.
@Riveted_Reader_Melissa #StacySchiff #CleopatraALife #Cleopatra #biography
@Texreader maybe I‘m channelling your mother or something, but this book. Ugh. I commend her for trying it multiple times. I feel like a kid on a road trip: are we there yet?! Is it over yet? 🤦🏼‍♀️

Riveted_Reader_Melissa Maybe it‘s spaced out too much? 🤷‍♀️ 5y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I don‘t know. I feel like I‘m getting way too much detail in places and not enough in others. It feels long winded when it doesn‘t need to be. It‘s just exhausting and not in a good way. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa If you want to DNF, I won‘t hold it against you, there are far too many books in the sea, so to speak, if you aren‘t enjoying what you‘re reading. 5y

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GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa 🤣😂🤣 thanks! I was part of what got us all into this, so I kind of want to stick it out if I can. Sometimes it‘s good to push through. I think knowing I just have to read a chapter a week really helps me keep going. 5y

Texreader @GingerAntics I feel the same way. Some passages feel so incomplete, then we get drowned with detail. It‘s weird. But like you, if it‘s just one chapter a week I think I can do it. We will see. 5y

GingerAntics @Texreader one chapter a week is really helping. It makes it part of the regular weekly schedule and you just do it and leave it until next week. 5y

Texreader @GingerAntics Exactly. It does feel a bit like homework! 5y

GingerAntics @Texreader 🤣😂🤣 that‘s a perfect way to put it. I think it‘s good for me to push through and finish this, because sometimes you do have to push through stuff you don‘t want to, so having practice and getting to do it with friends is always helpful. 5y

Texreader @GingerAntics So true. To be honest I wish the chapters weren‘t so darned long. I‘m such a slow reader and I want to read other things. But I feel like the pace we set, and with friends along, I can do this... 5y

GingerAntics @Texreader you got this!!! Have you tried text to speech? It makes long, miserable things like this much more bearable. 5y

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Graywacke

Cleopatra: A Life | Stacy Schiff

A little slow updating Listy, I‘m already about 40% through, started last week. An mix so far. Certainly an imperfect biography, but also not one I want to stop listening to. I‘ll have to check out #CleopatraALife

GingerAntics You‘re officially further along than we are. We‘re only reading a chapter a week. I suppose it‘s a little different between audio and the typed book. We‘ll be discussing chapter 5 this coming Sunday. It seems to be getting mixed reviews from us. 5y

Graywacke @GingerAntics I thought i was just caught up with you, but I actually just started chapter 8. So, I‘m well ahead. 5y

GingerAntics Oh wow, yeah, you‘re definitely ahead. Fingers crossed it picks up a bit. It sounds like it might based on what you just said. I think someone else is ahead, so you‘re not alone. 5y

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Graywacke @GingerAntics i just discovered the audio “chapters” aren‘t the same as the book chapters 🤦🏻‍♂️. I don‘t know where I am!! 5y

GingerAntics Uh-Oh. 🤦🏼‍♀️ Why are they doing that? I get possibly dividing up the longer chapters into two files, but they should still be properly numbered. This week we‘re discussing the chapter called “Man is By Nature a Political Creature.” Maybe that will help? 5y

Graywacke It‘s just not formatted carefully. Each “file” has a chapter number, but that number has nothing to do with the actual chapter numbers in the book. 5y

Graywacke @GingerAntics oops - see above. Forgot to tag you in the comment 5y

GingerAntics Oh that drives me nuts when they do that. I had an audio Shakespeare play once where each file was labelled with the first line of the file. 🤦🏼‍♀️ Hopefully you can figure out where you are in relation to the text. 5y

Graywacke @GingerAntics eventually. 🙂 5y

GingerAntics @Graywacke I suppose, push come to shove, you can just finish it. Then you know you‘ve read what you need to read. 🤣 5y

Graywacke @GingerAntics 🙂 one solution! 5y

GingerAntics I want to know what genius file maker, who clearly is not a reader himself/herself, is coming up with these crazy file ideas. 🤦🏼‍♀️ Clearly, readers should be in charge of these things. It seems logical, but I guess not. 5y

Graywacke @GingerAntics yeah, just not enough care put into it. This one is a 2010 audio publication. I think they‘re better now, in general. 5y

GingerAntics I think you‘re right. Audiobooks produced in the last handful of years seem to be better. Maybe they‘ve brought more readers on board to smooth out these details. Older audiobooks I have all seem to have odd track breaks like that. The more current an audiobook, the better it is on track breaks, it seems. 5y

Graywacke @GingerAntics I think there is more $$ in audiobooks these last couple years...and also a lot more competition. 5y

GingerAntics They do seem much more common now than they were even just a few years ago. That makes sense. They also seem a little cheaper. It used to be $30 a book, easy. Now they‘ve come down in price and many can be found for under $10 even. 5y

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