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The Raven Tower
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
Listen. A god is speaking. My voice echoes through the stone of your master's castle. The castle where he finds his uncle on his father's throne. You want to help him. You cannot. You are the only one who can hear me. You will change the world. A triumph of the imagination, The Raven Tower is the first fantasy novel by Ann Leckie, New York Times bestselling author and winner of the Hugo, Nebula, and Arthur C. Clarke Awards. Gods meddle in the fates of men, men play with the fates of gods and a pretender must be cast down from the throne in this breathtaking fantasy masterpiece.
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review
HeyT
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Pickpick

Well this was different from the Imperial Radch series but I still enjoyed it very much. I love that Leckie is not afraid to play with language and gender representation but it was still a bit of an ask to get used to the second person narration pov. I abolutley adored both Eolo and the Strength and Patience of the Hill who were the main focus of the two narrative threads.

RamsFan1963 I've loved everything I've read by Leckie, so I'll definitely be looking for this one. 12mo
18 likes1 stack add1 comment
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HeyT
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Spending tonight lounging on the couch with the dog and listening to the rain.
#DogsOfLitsy

dabbe 🖤🐾🖤 12mo
17 likes1 comment
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HeyT
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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I saw the July reminder come up but kept forgetting to post my #BookSpin list. New to the list this month is the tagged and Contact. I'm always just so hype for the picks to come out!

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rabbitprincess
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
Bailedbailed

I wanted to like this, because the concept is great, but the whole book is one long chapter with section breaks. I found it exhausting to read. Also found the second-person narration a bit odd, but would probably have rolled with it had there been more chapter breaks.

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deirdrebeecher
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Pickpick

Leckie style always takes me a moment to get into. I frequently reread the first chapters of her books in order to snap into it. My nerd side really enjoyed how she built up the culture of her world. The story itself is original and interesting. I just think there was something to the way the climax built which didn't quite work. 4 stars rather than 5. Still a pick.

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Lucy_Anywhere
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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#TBRPile 📚 “I first saw you when you rode out of the forest, past the cluster of tall, bulge-eyed offering stakes that make the edges of the forest, your horse at a walk.”

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Twainy
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Mehso-so

🎧 Polarizing! 🧐

Mostly told in second person with a sprinkling of 1st person. This is interesting & somewhat unique to me BUT I was taken out of the story repeatedly.

80% into the book I couldn‘t even tell you the name of one character. I just wasn‘t interested.

The story was ok & I enjoyed the way the god/human interaction was comically real & I could swear there was Hamlet fan service paid & right after I read Hamnet 🤨

⭐️⭐️1/4 👇🏻

Twainy The narrator was good but I felt she was neither an improvement nor a Star stealer.

All in all it was interesting but I wasn‘t pulled into the story & didn‘t care about the characters. I was more interested in the technical aspects of the writing.

There is an audience for this book it‘s just not me. I had a love/hate relationship with it and it wasn‘t a kind of hate that I love.
4y
17 likes1 comment
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behudd
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Panpan

⭐️⭐️To be honest I have no idea how to rate or review this one. Writing-wise it was a very interesting style mixing first and second person. Plot-wise it moved slowly, and story-wise I didn‘t really care about anyone. The audiobook narration was interesting, but made me dislike characters I don‘t think I would have because of her vocal choices.
However. It‘s also unlike anything I‘ve read before, and that, at least, makes it interesting.

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behudd
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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“I first saw you when you rode out of the forest, past the cluster of tall, bulge-eyed offering stakes that mark the edges of the forest, your horse at a walk.”
Super interesting writing style with the 2nd person! #firstlinefridays @ShyBookOwl

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Read-y_Picker
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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In honour of today‘s #3books prompt, I decided my next read would come #fromthelibrary! Love that with #libby and my libraries I can borrow audiobooks as well 😋 📕The Raven Tower 📗The Outsider 📘The Family Upstairs

OriginalCyn620 👍🏻📚👍🏻 4y
14 likes1 comment
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GrilledCheeseSamurai
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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I just started this today and I already know that I am going to finish it today.

It's a strange story with a strange narrative...and it's exactly what I'm in the mood for.

TracyReadsBooks Ann Leckie is amazing and I really enjoyed this book. 5y
rabbitprincess Awesome! This is on my to-read list. 5y
GrilledCheeseSamurai @TracyReadsBooks @rabbitprincess Its gotten some pans here on Litsy but I am 100% invested and loving it so far! 🤘 5y
72 likes3 stack adds3 comments
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Mogoeg
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Pickpick

I loved it. Like her science fiction, the joy is in the discovery and exploration of a fully realized, original world. Nothing will ever top Ancillary Justice for me but Leckie‘s premodern fantasy world with implacable and very real gods is wholly immersive and believable. Transporting.

81 likes2 stack adds
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Kryckett
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Pickpick

I wasn‘t expecting the nod to Hamlet, but I think it worked. I really liked the non-traditional POV, but I am not sold by the narrator‘s endgame. Still a pick, though. Worth the read.

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sparrowssavvy
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Mehso-so

While the concept of this book and the unique thoughts behind it were great, it really didn‘t catch me. The second person narrative was an interesting touch. It has definitely been a thought provoking read, and I definitely wanted to finish it and see where it went. But I‘m honestly still figuring out my exact thoughts on this one.

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GrilledCheeseSamurai
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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#ChillingPhotoChallenge #Raven

I still haven't gotten to this and I reeeeally want to read it!

Story of my life. 🤷🏼‍♂️

#TeamStoker +1 point
 @TheReadingMermaid

BeansPage 🧟‍♀️ 5y
72 likes2 stack adds1 comment
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deirdrebeecher
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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I was pleasantly lost when I came across this ruined Tower House somewhere near Lough Derg. Circled by cawing crows it had an amazing atmosphere. Day 9 #chillingphotochallenge and #Raven
#Scarathlon #TeamSlaughter @Clwojick

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AiBBot
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Pickpick

If you are looking for an action pack and fast moving novel, do not read this book. If you are in the mood for a grandiose pondering of the mind of gods (ancient and patient vs young and impulsive) and their relation to humans and each other, read this epic book.

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ScientistSam
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Bailedbailed

I love Ann Leckie, but this just wasn't for me. I couldn't get past about page 40. Maybe I'll try again at some later date...

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currerbelle
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Pickpick

Wow...I'm more or less speechless. Can't quite decide how I feel about the overall effect of the book yet, but I did enjoy it, and I wish there were more. An original story to be sure, and one that appeals to students of prehistory like myself.

BookmarkTavern That sounds really interesting! 5y
Nute I didn‘t know that Ann Leckie writes fantasy novels. Her science-fiction novels are very good. I hope to give this a go one day. Thanks for sharing! 5y
7 likes1 stack add2 comments
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AlizaApp
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Pickpick

A fantasy novel about ancient gods and the power they have or don‘t. As always, Leckie is amazing at building immersive worlds that feel foreign and familiar at once. I was not sure I liked the second person narration but then as it becomes clear who/what the narrator is, I ended up really liking it.

wanderinglynn Great review—I‘m sold! Stacked! 5y
28 likes2 stack adds1 comment
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JPeterson
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Up next!

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humouress
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie

Narrated by a god to one of the characters in second person (get your head around that!) it‘s an interesting take on the evolution of the world. The god (as far as I‘ve read) hasn‘t moved from the time they gained awareness although the world has changed around them. They narrate their story to ‘you‘ in flashbacks while also recounting their first encounter with ‘you‘.

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humouress
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie

Just starting this one. Much as with her ‘Ancillary Justice‘ series Leckie throws you in at the deep end - and her deep ends have unusual currents. In this case, the unknown narrator addresses you and tells you ‘your‘ story from their perspective.

rretzler Hey! How have you been? Glad you‘re reading this book. I can‘t wait to hear what you think. 6y
humouress Oops, sorry. My Litsy presence tends to be rather patchy. I actually really liked ‘The Raven Tower‘. You‘ll have to look at my LT thread for my review though I‘ll try and put one here and post it to the main page on LT 5y
rretzler Just as an FYI, on Litsy when you respond to someone who is commenting on your thread you have to use the @username in order for them to see it. You don‘t have to do that it you are replying on someone else‘s thread, which is why I don‘t need to use @username in this post, but you would to respond. It‘s a little confusing until you get used to it and I‘m always forgetting! I think you can double tap on the comment you want to reply to also 5y
2 likes3 comments
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saresmoore
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Panpan

Well, this was a disappointment. The overall concept is trite, the second-person narration is obnoxious, the writing is lackluster, and the pacing is painfully slow. I finished, still wondering when something interesting was going to happen and also desperate for the end. The ending was lame, too, clearly a setup for a sequel.

squirrelbrain 👎 ☹️ 6y
Leftcoastzen Don‘t hold back , tell us what you really think.😂Thanks for the honest review ! When certain genres are hot , I think they over publish thinking everything will sell. 6y
saresmoore @Leftcoastzen I know, I felt like I should qualify it with something nice, but I really couldn‘t think of anything. I‘m sure if I was face to face with the author, I‘d be able to come up with something. 😬 6y
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TrishB Not rushing to read anytime soon then.... 6y
rabbitprincess Oh boo! I so liked her Ancillary Justice series ☹️ 6y
merelybookish I hope it was short! 6y
saresmoore @merelybookish 400 pages, but with large print and wide margins. Still, the content could easily and perhaps more successfully been condensed into a short story or novella. 6y
saresmoore @rabbitprincess I want to try Ancillary Justice, still. I‘ve heard such good things about it! 6y
saresmoore @TrishB Some have really enjoyed it and I think even @Lindy ended up liking it, but I was underwhelmed. 6y
Lindy @saresmoore Whaaaa! 😫 I‘m sorry it wasn‘t for you. I recommend avoiding 6y
saresmoore @Lindy No need to apologize! I‘m glad I finished it because I would have always wondered if I missed out on something. And thank you for the recommendation! 6y
Lindy @saresmoore I hope my wording was clear. Stay well away from 🚫 6y
mjdowens I only made it about 1/4 of the way through and just couldn‘t do it. I was confused and lost the whole time 6y
saresmoore @Lindy Yes, I read you loud & clear. I almost wish there was an anti-TBR stack, since I find I‘m repeatedly drawn to books like that. 6y
saresmoore @mjdowens I was surprised that it was pretty much one note throughout. I don‘t think you missed out on anything. 6y
vivastory Hey, Sara, May is a bit early to be raving about your favorite book of the year!! Sheesh! 😆 6y
saresmoore @vivastory Guess I won‘t be talking about this one on Reading Envy! 🙃 6y
vivastory Are you going to be a guest soon? 6y
saresmoore @vivastory Not recording until September, but it‘s been on my mind. I‘ve had a slow reading year, so far. 6y
LeahBergen I have an uncontrollable urge to “stack” this just to be funny. 😂😂😂 6y
readordierachel Well, shoot. This sounded so good! 6y
saresmoore @readordierachel It did to me, too! 6y
Branwen I felt the SAME way about this! I couldn't even finish it, the point of view just drove me nuts! 😝 6y
saresmoore @Branwen That makes me feel better because I know you read much more widely in this genre than I do! I have been craving SFF and even high fantasy lately. I started All Systems Red and I‘m loving it. I also bought The Priory of the Orange Tree as a Kindle deal recently, so hoping that will scratch the itch. I‘m open to recs, though, if you have any! 6y
Branwen @saresmoore Yes, I was really surprised at my dislike for this book! The genre I just love, and because of that it's rare for me to find a book in fantasy that I don't like, but...well, it was kust awful! 😁 Oooh, Priory of the Orange Tree is SO FREAKING WONDERFUL! I'm reading it now, and kerp being blown away by it! GREAT CHOICE! 😄👍 6y
Branwen @saresmoore I would also reccomend Middlegame by Seanan Mcguire! I just finished that and it was marvelous! Time travel, clones, complex storytelling, and overall great characters. Actually, the Wayward Children series by the same author is also fantastic. It's about children who go to other worlds and how they cope with coming back to our world when they're a bit older. 6y
Branwen @saresmoore I've also just started a fantasy book called A Conspiracy of Truths by Alexandra Rowland which is really good! The protagonist is a cranky old man and he's amazing! 🤣😂 6y
Branwen @saresmoore Those were all fantasy recs. If you're looking for scifi I HIGHLY RECCOMEND The Expanse series. Hands down one of the best series I've ever read! 6y
saresmoore @Branwen Yay! Such great recommendations! Thank yoooou! ♥️♥️♥️ 6y
Branwen @saresmoore You are very welcome! Anytime, friend! 🤗💕📚 6y
81 likes1 stack add31 comments
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hissingpotatoes
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Bailedbailed

1/5⭐ Amazingly there's almost no plot OR character development. Usually books show progress in at least one area. There are so many layers of distancing, like the narrator's recounting of long past events, the irritating 2nd-person narration of the only interesting character, and the infodumping. I enjoyed the difficulty of Leckie's Imperial Radch series, but if this book has anything going for it, it went completely over my head. #bookemon

saresmoore I just looked this up to see if others had liked it. I‘m 60 pages in and bored out of my mind! Plus, yes, very much agree about the second person. Yeesh. 6y
hissingpotatoes @saresmoore Sorry you're bored, but I'm glad it's not just me! 6y
19 likes2 comments
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saresmoore
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Good thing I picked up this giant, engrossing fantasy novel from the library this morning because my car be dead.

monalyisha Ack! Good luck! 🍀🤞🏻 6y
saresmoore @monalyisha Thank you! 6y
kgriffith Oh noes! I hope you‘re safe and that help is on the way. 6y
See All 12 Comments
RealBooks4ever Oh no! Hope it isn‘t serious! 💜 🚙 6y
wordslinger42 Hope it's fixed soon! 6y
saresmoore @kgriffith Thank you! Fortunately, I was in the parking lot of the nicest Goodwill in town and my husband was able to come rescue me. @RealBooks4ever Still not sure what‘s wrong with the car, but hopefully we‘ll be able to get it running soon! 🤷‍♀️ 6y
Suet624 But look at that book!!! 6y
saresmoore @Suet624 Isn‘t it impressive? I hope it will be amazing and I‘ll breeze right through. I had a craving for a big, fat high fantasy from a female author and this was just sitting on the shelf, waiting for me! Abundance! 6y
Suet624 Aw, I'm so happy for you. Your wish satisfied. Hope you are well.... 6y
LeahBergen Well, that sucks (but thank goodness for the fat book!). 6y
Cathythoughts Broken down cars & yet there is still abundance to be found ♥️👍🏻love this 6y
DivineDiana Hope the repairs were minor.🤞🏻Glad you were prepared! 👏🏻 6y
78 likes1 stack add12 comments
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annkuch13
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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A late Sunday shelfie. This is my favorite section of shelves.
#shelfie

Erofan 😍 6y
GypsyKat Gorgeous! 6y
GrilledCheeseSamurai I know this post is a half year old but I just saw it now as I was scrolling photos for the tagged book. Wanted to say that I ❤️ your shelves and they look awesome! 😍 5y
39 likes4 comments
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shanaqui
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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My Raven Tower tote is proving to be a good library bag. Full marks. Emphasis on full.

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nitalibrarian
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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This fantasy came out in February and the ebook is on sale just for today. It's one of my favorite reads of 2019.

Dragon Downloaded! 👍😀🐉 6y
15 likes1 stack add1 comment
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Lindy
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Pickpick

I‘m glad that I stuck with this past the first hour of the #audiobook (the point where I considered bailing). I became so invested that I didn‘t want to stop listening, one of the few times I could say that insomnia was a blessing, because it allowed me to finish a riveting novel in record time. Among the intriguing cast of characters are gods, humans raised to be sacrificed to gods, and a couple of pragmatic queers. #LGBTQ fantasy

saresmoore I am reading this now (in print) and trying to decide whether or not to bail. The second person narration and all the tangential history/world building is irksome! I‘m about 60 pages in. 6y
Lindy @saresmoore I understand. I seriously contemplated bailing even though I‘ve loved Leckie‘s previous work. This one seemed disappointingly derivative, at the beginning. At 60 pages, it sounds like you are near what was the tipping point for me. Once I was hooked, I didn‘t want to stop. 6y
saresmoore I will give it some more time—thank you! I‘m ready to be hooked. 6y
Lindy @saresmoore 🍀👍 6y
55 likes2 stack adds4 comments
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Lindy
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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I‘m an hour into this and considering bailing. The narrator, Adjoa Andoh, is one of my favourites, so that‘s not the problem. It just seems too predictable, in spite of being told from a god‘s viewpoint. It‘s possibly too soon after Black Leopard Red Wolf for me to read another fantasy. I loved Ann Leckie‘s Imperial Radch series so much, however, that I will give this audiobook another hour before making up my mind.

48 likes1 stack add
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suzisteffen
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Pickpick

OH MY GOODNESS, someone (Ann Leckie, that is) has been reading her Shakespeare ... and her folklore about gods being strengthened by attention and over time. Loved it. W o w. This would make one HELL of a movie. (Or a British - and therefore limited - miniseries.) DAMN. 4.5 ⭐️

📸: Christiana Clark as Horatio in the 2016 production of Hamlet at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival. Photo probably by Jenny Graham.

suzisteffen THE MOSQUITOES THOUGH 6y
suzisteffen And revenge. Revenge and Macbeth. And a very disappointing Hamlet. 6y
suzisteffen SO MUCH. 6y
17 likes3 comments
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suzisteffen
Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Forgot to preorder this one and then March was “read library books” month, so NOW starting it (& if I‘m lucky, finishing it today too). I LOVE ANN LECKIE‘S BOOKS so ... just can‘t wait. #kobo #sciencefiction #amreading

suzisteffen Ahahahah lol this one is #fantasy, oops! Bet I‘ll still love it. 6y
ScientistSam I can't wait to see how she does fantasy! 6y
9 likes2 comments
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AshleyKorinE
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Pickpick

This book was fun and so good. I hope Leckie expands this story with more books because I loved the characters and need to know what happens next. The writing style was odd at first but once you figure out who‘s talking it gets so much better. I suggest reading the physical copy because there‘s no character change break on audio. If you love epic fantasy with hidden POVs this is a good pick it reminded me of The Fifth Season but slightly better.

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Lauredhel
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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catiewithac
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Panpan

#JustTheRightBook sent me this. I‘ve loved every single selection #JTRB sent before, but I hated this one with a passion. The writing is average, the pace is slow, the characters one dimensional. Other readers enjoyed the big “reveal” at the VERY end of the book, but it wasn‘t a surprise to me. It is a YA appropriate fantasy novel with zero sex and only one F-💣 My fav part was the lesson that municipal water service is important for sanitation💦

saresmoore Ha! Great review. I just finished this and felt the same about it. 6y
37 likes1 comment
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rretzler
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Pickpick

I‘ve read and enjoyed everything by Ann Leckie and this book is no exception. I just finished and I‘m still processing...there was a lot to like-the human protagonist was an intelligent, likeable, and level-headed character, the world-building is interesting, and the writing was excellent. However, the book was a combination of first and second person which was strange and there should have been more character building. Sequel? 4.0/5.0 ⭐️ #2019

53 likes2 stack adds
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ctboeheim
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Pickpick

I enjoyed the unique narrative style, the never-quite-revealed depths of the focal character, Eolo, and the mysterious narrator. The story gathers momentum slowly, but is as unstoppable as an avalanche by the end.

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SW-T
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Mehso-so

The story is narrated by a patient but vengeful god who happens to be a rock. It‘s the sole narrator and switches between its own story and Eolo‘s.

Pro‘s: original concepts, good world building, nice writing. Leckie has a way with words.

Cons: Slow pace. Conceptually intriguing and boring all at once.

I‘ve read slow-paced novels before and loved them, but this one, though kind of interesting, drags. Worth a try but not a must read.

wordzie Nice review 6y
26 likes1 comment
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catiewithac
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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This. Is. The. Slowest. Book. Ever. (Feels like I‘ve been reading forever but still only on page 195. Also nothing has happened.)

Suet624 Well that‘s unfortunate! 6y
catiewithac @Suet624 Things are a little better by page 273 but not much. 🐢 6y
ctboeheim Just finished. The Stone on the hillside will tell you that patience is rewarded in unexpected ways. 6y
34 likes3 comments
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ctboeheim
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Just started this book. It begins with a really interesting narrative device: what amounts to a second-person narrative. An unseen and unnamed narrator addressing one of the characters as "you." Waiting to see where this goes.

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meganlynae
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Pickpick

I don‘t know guys. Somehow the chatty old rock god turns out to be not so safe and I wasn‘t expecting it. Chilling! I‘ve been interning in the children‘s department at a local library and we often talk about how repetition in literature builds patterns that are soothing and predictable for young children. It works on adults too because I got sucked into the “Here is a story I have heard” pattern without realizing that the stories were warnings.

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Lizpixie
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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#BookMail Pt12 Finally for this week, I have the brand new Ann Leckie novel which is her first foray into fantasy. I loved her Ancillary series & am very much looking forward to seeing how well she does in this genre!🙌🖤🦅

52 likes1 stack add
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bookwrm526
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Pickpick

I love Ann Leckie. This one took me longer to get into that her sci-fi books, but I really enjoyed it once it got going. This was my book with an inanimate object as a POV character for the #ReadHarder - a large rock is one of the narrators!

GrilledCheeseSamurai I picked this up the other day and added it to my stack. I'm excited to start it. 👍 6y
31 likes1 comment
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SW-T
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Excited to see how this goes.

#newbookfeels #newbook

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Angeles
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Pickpick

Totally different from her science fiction series but really imaginative and amazing world building.The book is slow pace at the beginning so some people might not like it but i think it works

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TracyReadsBooks
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Pickpick

Phenomenal. A slow burn of a story which steadily builds to an ending which...just...wow...More than just a story about gods & humans at war, it‘s a story about the nature of belief, faith, religion—how they develop & evolve over time—about tradition, power & much more. There are no grand action sequences but there are innumerable moments, large & small, which tease & reveal until the end. A fascinating, introspective & thought-provoking book.

Becker Great review 6y
26 likes1 stack add1 comment
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TracyReadsBooks
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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Having caught up on my comics for the week, it‘s time to dive into another book. So, I‘m going with my other preorder of the week—Ann Leckie never disappoints and her stories, in addition to always being well-written and very entertaining, always make you think. Definitely looking forward to reading this one.

KarouBlue Lately, I‘m always one book behind you! #greatreadingminds! 6y
TracyReadsBooks @MellieAntoinette Great reading minds indeed! I can‘t wait to see what you think about the book. I‘m really enjoying it so far. 6y
25 likes2 comments
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Laughterhp
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
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This is me, impatiently waiting for my 2019 New Release holds!

I like how my library tells me which place I‘m in. My old library didn‘t do that. My new library may have awful hours, but I like the features it has.

MelissaSue81 Ooh. Mine is the same system but it doesn‘t tell me my place in line until they have the book checked in and processed.. i am just 0 until then. 6y
48 likes1 comment
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shanaqui
The Raven Tower | Ann Leckie
Pickpick

I thought this was brilliant. I love the way it wound up to deliver a punch at the end. I love the POV (and I just know I'm going to be so irritated by people's reactions) and how it solves the problem of who is telling the story to whom (and why), which has always been a thing of mine with first person.

I think i prefer the Imperial Radch books for narrative directness and being a little more predictable that way, but love this too.