Litsy

Short History of Byzantium | John Julius Norwich

This one might be a little tough. How did Islam influence Christianity during this time period? #islam #christianity #discussion #ashorthistoryofbyzantium #catholicchurch #byzantium #byzantineempire #johnjuliusnorwich #popeleo #iconoclasm

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dabbe

The Yellow Face | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
@Cuilin
#TheYellowFace
#Discussion

What did y'all think? 🤩

Daisey, erzascarletbookgasm, CogsOfEncouragement, AnneCecilie, Aimeesue, Larkken, Librarybelle, mom2bugnbee, Read4life, StayCurious, Sace, CatLass007, Mollyanna, curiouserandcurioser, eeclayton, dabbe, IndoorDame, kelli7990, TheAromaofBooks, 5feet.of.fury, Tineke, Blackink_WhitePaper, Pageturner1, PageShifter, AllDebooks, AnnR, kimrenee, aroyse, CrystalE02

Cuilin I did laugh at the fact that Sherlock has no vices. He just does cocaine every now and then. Lol 10mo

IndoorDame @Cuilin totally! 🤣 10mo

CatLass007 @Cuilin @IndoorDame Coca-Cola used to contain cocaine. My maternal grandfather was an EENT who used cocaine as a pain medication when performing nasal surgery. So Watson‘s description of Holmes having no vices except for cocaine actually tracks with the times. 10mo

See All 16 Comments

Librarybelle This is probably my least favorite of the stories thus far. I was hoping, like Holmes, that it was Effie‘s first husband back to haunt her or seek revenge or something. The “twist” is abominable. It does make me think there was a political agenda to this. Ugh…on to the next story! 10mo

IndoorDame @Librarybelle it seems like there‘s a political bent to a lot of his stories. Is that bad? Contemporary writers often use their voices and platforms to make people think. It definitely alienates certain readers, but it makes others feel seen and heard, and makes yet more question their current opinions. 10mo

Librarybelle @IndoorDame I agree…I think it‘s safe to say that stories tend to have a political slant to them. I‘m not saying that is bad. I personally was not a fan of the twist to this, hence my comment to move on to the next. I really should not comment on these posts without fully thinking through my responses. 😂 10mo

IndoorDame @Librarybelle no, these chats are great! They make me think about the stories from other angles. Like you just got me to go look up marriage laws in Britain and the UK which never would‘ve occurred to me. I wasn‘t even thinking legally when I was thinking about Effie‘s character. 10mo

Librarybelle @IndoorDame You always learn something new with the discussions! One of the many reasons why Litsy is so great! 10mo

dabbe Another angle I found interesting was like a road map as to how to have a good marriage: you must COMMUNICATE no matter how difficult. Easier to say in 2024, but, man, it reminded me (in a roundabout way) of ROMEO AND JULIET and how no one would have died if they just would have trusted, loved, and spoken honestly to one another. 10mo

CogsOfEncouragement It seemed like a story to teach a lesson this time - love and respect across races - rather than a clever mystery. It seems I like Sherlock more than others who comment here. His statement at the end does not surprise me. He is decisive & confident because he is usually correct, but he has shown care for people many times. He makes no excuses for his error, just admits it. Even tells Watson to remind him. He is not unreasonable in pride or ego. 10mo

CogsOfEncouragement @Cuilin I laughed too! 10mo

kelli7990 I enjoyed this story. 10mo

dabbe @kelli7990 🤩🤩🤩 10mo

Aimeesue @dabbe Yes! So many times, if people had just talked to each other, there would have been zero drama! 10mo

dabbe @Aimeesue But then I guess we wouldn't have a story to read. 😂🤗😀 10mo

Aimeesue @dabbe 😂😂😂 10mo

40 likes16 comments

dabbe

The Yellow Face | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
@Cuilin
#TheYellowFace
#Discussion

What did y'all think? 🤩

Cuilin Yeah, when we got to the conclusion of the story, I was disappointed in Effie. She seriously just abandoned her child. I‘m trying to be kind given the time period. However, her husband was the better human. 10mo

IndoorDame She really was portrayed abominably! We get hints early on that the husband was progressive when he described wanting her to stay in control of her own finances, so his conclusion tracks for me. But for her to abandon social conventions for love with her first husband and then get so frightened later that she resorted to making her daughter wear a mask 🙄😡 is confusing… 10mo

CatLass007 Effie‘s lies made the situation with her husband worse. I wonder if she was ashamed of her child being even darker than her first husband? I definitely think her husband was the better human being. Maybe some of that was a sense of relief, but his immediate acceptance of the child showed his kindness and humanity. 10mo

See All 12 Comments

Librarybelle I cannot say that Effie is the strongest. She echoes the prejudice of the time with her feelings toward her daughter‘s skin color and feeling the need to cover up her daughter. 10mo

Read4life She abandoned her child and then had her cover up her skin. Could it be that she feared what would happen to her child if the truth was found out about her? I just don‘t know. She definitely underestimated her own husband. 10mo

dabbe I believe Britain was a tad more understanding than America with mixed racial marriages--a tad. Maybe that's also why Munro only waited TWO minutes before accepting the child, and in the American version he waited TEN. It is a hard pill to also swallow re: Effie leaving her child in America where prejudice was worse. I know she had yellow fever, but ... 10mo

Aimeesue I wonder if it would have been worse for both of them if Effie had stayed in Atlanta? Georgia is still pretty racially divided in places. Though why it would have been better to leave the child with a (presumably white) Scottish nurse is beyond me. Maybe the class difference? 10mo

Aimeesue Effie could have left money for the nurse and the child before she left the US, right? She clearly had control of it before handing it over to Munroe. 10mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Absolutely true and an excellent point. 10mo

dabbe @Aimeesue I'm not a mother, but it's rather difficult to picture a mother leaving her child (who has yellow fever and could die like the husband) and just go on to England--regardless of the consequences in America. 10mo

Aimeesue @dabbe Maybe. But white mom + black child (or vice versa) has repercussions even today. Effie doesn‘t much go into it. We‘re missing a lot of the backstory: could she have stayed in the US? She was a Brit. I have no idea, but as a mom, there would have had to have been something sending me back to the UK. Feels like maybe we‘re missing something. 10mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Well, there's the question. Why leave so much hanging that we can't figure out? What then was Doyle's overall purpose? To entertain us with this story? Of all the ones we've read, this one is (to me) NOT entertaining. What's the point, then? 10mo

32 likes12 comments

dabbe

The Yellow Face | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
@Cuilin
#TheYellowFace
#Discussion

What did y'all think? 🤩

Cuilin Holmes really is a bystander and I think it begs the question as to what Conan Doyle‘s intention was with this story. 10mo

CatLass007 @Cuilin I was wondering why Conan Doyle wrote this story. So many of his own prejudices shine through in Holmes. For example, his antipathy towards Mormons. Why did Holmes appear to think that her first husband was still alive and stalking Effie? And when he removed the girl‘s mask, why did he laugh? Because he had made false assumptions? I would think the common reaction of the times would have been shock and anger. 10mo

Librarybelle Not only was Holmes a bystander, but his initial solution was wrong. Watson points out that Holmes was not always correct - did the public want an example of this? To me, this seems like a story very politically loaded. 10mo

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Cuilin @CatLass007 interesting. I did see the laugh as something more positive. He understood Munro‘s personality and would accept Effie‘s daughter. A case of “all is well, that ends well”. 10mo

IndoorDame I think the “why” here has a lot of depth. Holmes plays a cheerleader/psychiatrist, something he‘s notoriously bad at & uninterested in. His assumptions are totally wrong, mainly because he always disregards women & this case is all about actions taken by women. But in the end a woman is the villain of the story. Doyle shines a spotlight on race relations & interracial relationships, but doesn‘t really offer any clear answers except it‘s messy. 10mo

dabbe Perhaps Doyle wants to send a message of acceptance as shown through Munro's actions towards Effie's daughter. And perhaps Watson wants to show his readers that Holmes is a flawed character and makes mistakes. Even Holmes chastises himself--“Watson, ... if it should ever strike you that I am getting a little over-confident in my powers ... kindly whisper ‘Norbury‘ in my ear, and I shall be infinitely obliged to you“--showing that he has a heart. 10mo

Aimeesue I think Holmes suspected the husband because that‘s the logical first suspect. No one ever suspects a CHILD - it‘s always the Ex. Still true today, because statistically, that‘s the simplest and most likely answer. Like the warning to doctors about diagnoses, “When you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras.” The most likely answer is usually the answer. 10mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Good point. But why not suspect the mother? Women usually are the first to be suspect in any situation. #patriarchysucks 10mo

Aimeesue @dabbe Whose mother? Effie‘s not a suspect in Holmes‘ mind because she‘s the target. Who has motive to blackmail her? Because blackmail‘s what it looks like from Holmes‘ POV 10mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Is she the target? Her husband speaks about her as if she is the guilty one--skulking about at night, not answering his questions, etc. The husband judges her far more harshly than Holmes--who doesn't judge her at all. 10mo

Aimeesue @dabbe At the start, Holmes sees Effie‘s actions as a result of someone threatening/blackmailing her, so he suspects the 1st husband of pressuring her, and E. acquiescing to his demands, which is why he looks on her sympathetically, right? Munroe judges her from a self-centered POV -she‘s keeping secrets from ME, not Gosh, this is odd, you OK, Effie? Holmes is looking at a wider view, and accepts Munroe‘s belief that E is still in love with him (edited) 10mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Agree 💯. 10mo

34 likes12 comments

dabbe

The Yellow Face | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
@Cuilin
#TheYellowFace
#Discussion

What did y'all think? 🤩

CatLass007 I was thinking that a story about an interracial marriage that produced a child would have cost Conan Doyle more than a few readers. Such a story might very well have had that same effect on readers today. Humans really haven‘t made much progress when it comes to hating people who are different. I also thought that Effie‘s own prejudice showed when she said that it was unfortunate that her daughter had even darker skin than her late husband. 10mo

Librarybelle I was actually shocked by this story…I suppose it could be considered progressive, but at least in the US, it was illegal to have an interracial relationship at the time. I don‘t know a lot about Conan Doyle personally - was he a supporter of equality? I feel like I need a history lesson to better understand UK attitudes toward this; US readers would not have been pleased. 10mo

IndoorDame @Librarybelle she was in the US for her first marriage in this story 10mo

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Librarybelle @IndoorDame I know…that would at least conflict with the law in the US at this time. For Conan Doyle to present this makes me want to dive more into the UK thoughts at this time. Sorry I was not more clear! 10mo

Read4life I remember reading this when I was VERY young and not understanding the big deal. In later years, as I became more aware of what this story was referring to, I was angry it needed to be written and happy Doyle put Sherlock in this scenario. Today, as a woman in an interracial marriage with children, I‘m saddened that we haven‘t come very far as humans. 10mo

dabbe @Librarybelle I wonder if Doyle knew this when he wrote it or if it was another of his mistakes (like the errors he wrote about the Mormons). Maybe he didn't know it was illegal since he didn't have Effie address that challenge on top of the marriage itself to a black man. 10mo

Librarybelle @dabbe Maybe??? That is a good point too about his errors regarding the Mormons. 10mo

Aimeesue Story was published in 1892, right when the US had just extended the Chinese Exclusion Act, which banned Chinese laborers from immigrating to the US. All the racist “Yellow Peril” nonsense probably drove that decision. 10mo

Aimeesue @dabbe I read Effie‘s explanation that her daughter was darker than her husband as maybe indicating that he was able to pass as white, at least at times? There are a lot of stories about people who passed and marrying white spouses being afraid of having children for exactly that reason. 10mo

Aimeesue “She touched a spring, and the front hinged back. There was a portrait within of a man strikingly handsome and intelligent-looking, but bearing unmistakable signs upon his features of his African descent." That says that he was a light skinned Black man, no? 10mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Agree 💯. 10mo

Bookwomble @Librarybelle @Aimeesue You might find this book interesting, as it collects accounts of the experiences of Black people in pre-20th century Britain 🙂

Black Voices on Britain

10mo

Librarybelle @Bookwomble Thank you! I‘ll have to check it out! 10mo

Aimeesue @Bookwomble Thanks for the rec! Looks really interesting, though probably full of horrible experiences. 10mo

Bookwomble @Aimeesue Not too full of horrible experiences as this was mainly before the advancement of race theory, and ordinary British people generally saw that they had more in common with Black people escaping from oppression than they had with the British aristocrats that they were themselves oppressed by. Obviously, times and attitudes were still very different. The editor, Hakim Adi, is a prof of Black British history, so he knows his stuff. 10mo

Aimeesue @Bookwomble Oh, good! 10mo

31 likes1 stack add16 comments

dabbe

The Adventure of the Copper Beeches | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
@Cuilin
#TheAdventureOfTheCopperBeeches
#Discussion

What did y'all think? 🤩

Librarybelle Other than the ending with the dog, I liked it. I think this shows that Holmes is not the only one who can solve a situation - Mrs. Toller and the suitor working together. 10mo

IndoorDame @Librarybelle i agree about the dog, those scenes are always so hard to read! But in general I really liked this one. My major complaint is actually how painfully naive Miss Hunter was 10mo

Librarybelle @IndoorDame She was so naive! 10mo

See All 13 Comments

Aimeesue This is one of my favorites, illustrating, as it does, the changing roles and relationships of both women and animals in society. (edited) 10mo

CogsOfEncouragement At the end, Watson comments that Sherlock had no further interest in Miss Hunter after the mystery was solved. Then he immediately updates the reader that she has a wonderful job. I think we are meant to read between the lines that Sherlock set her up in that position and didn't brag about doing it. Watson doesn't know how much Sherlock did indeed care about what happened to Miss Hunter. How else does she go from no prospects to an excellent job? 10mo

dabbe @CogsOfEncouragement Excellent point. I kinda got the feeling that Watson also hoped she and Sherlock would get together, but since Irene Adler is forever known as THE woman in SH's life, that was never a possibility. 10mo

dabbe After reading this, I can't stop thinking about the horrid son of Rucastle, who enjoys “giving pain to any creature weaker than himself [for his] amusement, and he shows quite remarkable talent in planning the capture of mice, little birds, and insects.“ Is it me, or is this kid a serial killer in the making? Yikes. 😱 10mo

dabbe @Aimeesue I also enjoyed the fast-paced action, though not the animal abuse. 10mo

dabbe @IndoorDame “Painfully“ naive is spot-on! 10mo

kelli7990 I liked this story. 10mo

CrystalE02 It was okay. Not my favorite, I was okay with it until the dog part. I can't handle that. She was so naive it was annoying. 10mo

dabbe @kelli7990 It was one of the more fast-paced ones, wasn't it? 10mo

dabbe @CrystalE02 And the next story is about a horse named “Silver Blaze.“ I don't remember it very well, but based on how animals have been treated so far, we should, as Scar would say, #beprepared. 🐾 10mo

38 likes13 comments

dabbe

The Adventure of the Copper Beeches | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
@Cuilin
#TheAdventureOfTheCopperBeeches
#Discussion

What did y'all think? 🤩

Librarybelle Maybe in some ways, but would Rucastle have had his conclusion??? 10mo

dabbe @Librarybelle That's pretty much the only thing I could think of that'd be different. The daughter would have been saved no matter what, so the dog enacting his revenge (like the snake in THE SPECKLED BAND) on his owner wouldn't have happened without SH, and there (perhaps) is the justice Rucastle deserves. 10mo

Librarybelle Agreed, @dabbe ! 10mo

See All 10 Comments

IndoorDame I also think the resolution would‘ve been basically identical, which I find so interesting as a formula to include in SH (for both Doyle and Watson). He solves the mystery, and reassures the client, but wasn‘t needed to help avert any actual danger, and decided that punishment was not necessary. So it‘s ALL about the mystery. 10mo

Aimeesue True, except for Violet Hunter. She‘d still be stuck with the horrible Rucastles, because THEY clearly want nothing to do with the child. They probably would‘ve scammed her out of what they promised to pay her, too. 10mo

CogsOfEncouragement If Holmes wasn't there the night that the daughter escaped, maybe the escape would have gone undetected for a bit? I'm not sure if Mr. Rucastle would have checked on his prisoner if he hadn't noticed that door was open. Then he would not have been attacked by the dog, and would have had his health. Even less consequence for Mr Rucastle. 10mo

dabbe @IndoorDame Agree 💯. For SH, it's ALL about the puzzle of the case. Everything else takes a back seat to that. 10mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Excellent point. I wonder what they would have done with Violet after knowing the daughter escaped, or if Violet would have figured it out and escaped somehow. She might have become their prisoner, too, since she already knew too much (the room she wasn't supposed to go in, the hair ...)--plus, he threatened to kill her with the dog! 😱 10mo

dabbe @CogsOfEncouragement Right. The only penalty would have been the loss of the $ from the daughter. Not much of a consequence for imprisoning her! 10mo

CrystalE02 I think it would have been the same. 10mo

36 likes10 comments

dabbe

The Adventure of the Copper Beeches | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
@Cuilin
#TheAdventureOfTheCopperBeeches
#Discussion

What did y'all think? 🤩

Librarybelle Legally, no. I think this is where we‘ve discussed in the past about Holmes‘ thoughts on Justice. Rucastle does pay a pretty big price - for me, animal neglect is reprehensible, and this whole scene had me feel awful for the dog. 10mo

IndoorDame At the start of this one Holmes says “Crime is common. Logic is rare.” I‘m starting to think he couldn‘t care less what happens to any of the players after he‘s solved the puzzle to his satisfaction and explained it to everyone. If the police had been involved from the beginning in this one the Rucastle‘s might be in jail, but since they weren‘t Holmes didn‘t care enough to call them in, and no one else contradicted him. 10mo

dabbe @Librarybelle Oh, I felt for the dog, too. I think I was vicious enough to want the dog to kill Rucastle for the horrendous abuse. One of the more gruesome SH scenes. 😱 10mo

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dabbe @IndoorDame I guess, too, that the fact that the daughter got away and is happy, the idea of “all's well that ends well“ comes into play. The Rucastles have to live with each other and are irretrievably broken. Perhaps that's enough. 10mo

Aimeesue "Justice" was very different at that time, yes? And there were plenty of men locking up their female relations in asylums to retain control of their $$$, so imprisoning women "for their own safety" was an accepted thing. Plenty of people still doing it today, right, Britney Spears? I was maybe a little too pleased that the Rucastles were doomed to suffer out the rest of their lives together, along with their bratty child. (edited) 10mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Me, too! I wrote on another post that I think the kid is a serial killer in the making! They most definitely deserve each other! 10mo

CrystalE02 Not one of my favorite stories. Maybe it was the time period, but I felt like the story was kind of creepy and weird. 10mo

dabbe @CrystalE02 It could almost have come across as a silent movie from the 1910s. 10mo

33 likes8 comments

dabbe

Adventure of the Noble Bachelor: The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
@Cuilin
#TheAdventureOfTheNobleBachelor
#Discussion

What did y'all think? 🤩

erzascarletbookgasm, CogsOfEncouragement, AnneCecilie, Aimeesue, Larkken, Librarybelle, mom2bugnbee, Read4life, StayCurious, Sace, CatLass007, Mollyanna, curiouserandcurioser, eeclayton, dabbe, IndoorDame, kelli7990, TheAromaofBooks, 5feet.of.fury, Tineke, Blackink_WhitePaper, Pageturner1, PageShifter, AllDebooks, AnnR, kimrenee, aroyse, CrystalE02

IndoorDame I think this is the first time Sherlock and I agree that no crime was committed and everyone should run along home 😂 11mo

Librarybelle True, @IndoorDame ! 11mo

dabbe @IndoorDame Unless you want to charge Hatty Doran with bigamy! 😀 11mo

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IndoorDame @dabbe oooh, we totally could! But it seems petty since she didn‘t steal money from either husband (and running off with your own fortune is the sort of thing that calls for recriminations against marrying someone just for the money) 11mo

dabbe @IndoorDame Agree 💯. Hatty and Frank deserve each other. 😂 11mo

dabbe A couple of things I found to be a hoot in this one:
•When Lestrade is so proud of the clue he found, Holmes looks at it, and Lestrade SHRIEKS, “You're looking at the wrong side!“
•When Simon dares to say to Holmes that the cases he's solved so far were from the lower classes, Sherlock replies that he is “descending“ in Simon's case and that his last client “of the sort was a king.“ 11mo

kelli7990 I liked this story. 11mo

CogsOfEncouragement @dabbe Yes, Wrong side!?! - so funny. And when Simon is quite struck that he is not the highest client Holmes has aided. (HOW embarrassing lol)

I also thought is was silly for Simon to come for help from Holmes but then say “I am afraid it will take wiser heads than yours or mine“ and then amusing when Holmes says it was an honor of Simon to put his head on the level with Simon's.

@Librarybelle @IndoorDame 11mo

dabbe @CogsOfEncouragement I forgot about that last one, too! 😂 11mo

41 likes9 comments

dabbe

Adventure of the Noble Bachelor: The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
@Cuilin
#TheAdventureOfTheNobleBachelor
#Discussion

What did y'all think? 🤩

IndoorDame I think you could title this one Everyone Behaving Badly. Watson and the hapless inspector seem to me to come off the best, and our society couple the worst, but no one‘s behavior quite reaches noble, and Holmes‘ staging of the reveal is a bit self serving and distasteful. 11mo

Librarybelle I‘m not sure anyone‘s behavior could be described as noble. St. Simon does remind me of the stereotypical nobility-type. 11mo

dabbe Hatty's dad was abominable: getting rich then forbidding his daughter to marry Frank because he had no money, but hey, let's marry a lord for his title! Frank doesn't think Hatty can stay faithful unless they secretly marry so he can “feel sure of her.“ Plus he has her go through with the marriage to Simon when he magically appears at her wedding? Why couldn't they cause a scene at the church? They certainly did later! ⬇️ (edited) 11mo

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dabbe Then Hatty wants to avoid everything and everybody: it's too “dreadful hard“ to tell Simon the truth, so let's just run away. Oh, and let's have Frank hide her wedding clothes because that'll solve everything. It takes SH to make them see the light, and then he thinks they can all get together for a happy supper? Yowza! 😂 11mo

dabbe And ... no one seems to care what happens to Flora Miller. Lestrade thinks she killed Hatty, so is she left to still rot in jail? And even though Simon behaved “nobly“ by shaking Hatty's hand, he had no problem flinging it with Flora--just as any noble bachelor would do, right? 11mo

Sace @dabbe Exactly! I need more story about Flora! 11mo

CogsOfEncouragement @IndoorDame @Librarybelle @dabbe @sace I was surprised Watson was callous, saying Simon was not very gracious, while Holmes understood the hurt of losing a bride (okay & fortune lol). I saw Holmes as thoughtful providing an expensive dinner to allow Simon to get some closure in a private space. With upscale bottles of wine, for him to ease his pain as he heard the tale w/Holmes & Watson serving as buffer. And Yes, was Flora justified? 11mo

IndoorDame @dabbe yes, I really hope someone gets her out of jail!!!!🤞🏼its maybe not strictly “nice” to crash your exes wedding to cause a scene, but I don‘t think we can justify the level punishment for her rudeness she‘d get for kidnapping and killing the new bride! 11mo

dabbe @CogsOfEncouragement Holmes does show his softer side in this one, doesn't he? Excellent point! 🤩 11mo

dabbe @IndoorDame @Sace I've read that Doyle was known for “forgetting“ plot lines throughout his stories, but in the same one? He totally leaves Flora out there to hang! 11mo

Sace Did Doyle forget or was she just a run of the mill danseuse not worthy of anything more? (I just wanted an excuse to use danseuse in a sentence 😂) 11mo

Aimeesue @Sace 😂😂😂 11mo

38 likes12 comments

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