The Yellow Face

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
@Cuilin
#TheYellowFace
#Discussion

What did y'all think? 🤩

Daisey, erzascarletbookgasm, CogsOfEncouragement, AnneCecilie, Aimeesue, Larkken, Librarybelle, mom2bugnbee, Read4life, StayCurious, Sace, CatLass007, Mollyanna, curiouserandcurioser, eeclayton, dabbe, IndoorDame, kelli7990, TheAromaofBooks, 5feet.of.fury, Tineke, Blackink_WhitePaper, Pageturner1, PageShifter, AllDebooks, AnnR, kimrenee, aroyse, CrystalE02

Cuilin I did laugh at the fact that Sherlock has no vices. He just does cocaine every now and then. Lol 6mo

IndoorDame @Cuilin totally! 🤣 6mo

CatLass007 @Cuilin @IndoorDame Coca-Cola used to contain cocaine. My maternal grandfather was an EENT who used cocaine as a pain medication when performing nasal surgery. So Watson‘s description of Holmes having no vices except for cocaine actually tracks with the times. 6mo

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Librarybelle This is probably my least favorite of the stories thus far. I was hoping, like Holmes, that it was Effie‘s first husband back to haunt her or seek revenge or something. The “twist” is abominable. It does make me think there was a political agenda to this. Ugh…on to the next story! 6mo

IndoorDame @Librarybelle it seems like there‘s a political bent to a lot of his stories. Is that bad? Contemporary writers often use their voices and platforms to make people think. It definitely alienates certain readers, but it makes others feel seen and heard, and makes yet more question their current opinions. 6mo

Librarybelle @IndoorDame I agree…I think it‘s safe to say that stories tend to have a political slant to them. I‘m not saying that is bad. I personally was not a fan of the twist to this, hence my comment to move on to the next. I really should not comment on these posts without fully thinking through my responses. 😂 6mo

IndoorDame @Librarybelle no, these chats are great! They make me think about the stories from other angles. Like you just got me to go look up marriage laws in Britain and the UK which never would‘ve occurred to me. I wasn‘t even thinking legally when I was thinking about Effie‘s character. 6mo

Librarybelle @IndoorDame You always learn something new with the discussions! One of the many reasons why Litsy is so great! 6mo

dabbe Another angle I found interesting was like a road map as to how to have a good marriage: you must COMMUNICATE no matter how difficult. Easier to say in 2024, but, man, it reminded me (in a roundabout way) of ROMEO AND JULIET and how no one would have died if they just would have trusted, loved, and spoken honestly to one another. 6mo

CogsOfEncouragement It seemed like a story to teach a lesson this time - love and respect across races - rather than a clever mystery. It seems I like Sherlock more than others who comment here. His statement at the end does not surprise me. He is decisive & confident because he is usually correct, but he has shown care for people many times. He makes no excuses for his error, just admits it. Even tells Watson to remind him. He is not unreasonable in pride or ego. 6mo

CogsOfEncouragement @Cuilin I laughed too! 6mo

kelli7990 I enjoyed this story. 6mo

dabbe @kelli7990 🤩🤩🤩 6mo

Aimeesue @dabbe Yes! So many times, if people had just talked to each other, there would have been zero drama! 6mo

dabbe @Aimeesue But then I guess we wouldn't have a story to read. 😂🤗😀 6mo

Aimeesue @dabbe 😂😂😂 6mo

40 likes16 comments

dabbe

The Yellow Face | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
@Cuilin
#TheYellowFace
#Discussion

What did y'all think? 🤩

Cuilin Yeah, when we got to the conclusion of the story, I was disappointed in Effie. She seriously just abandoned her child. I‘m trying to be kind given the time period. However, her husband was the better human. 6mo

IndoorDame She really was portrayed abominably! We get hints early on that the husband was progressive when he described wanting her to stay in control of her own finances, so his conclusion tracks for me. But for her to abandon social conventions for love with her first husband and then get so frightened later that she resorted to making her daughter wear a mask 🙄😡 is confusing… 6mo

CatLass007 Effie‘s lies made the situation with her husband worse. I wonder if she was ashamed of her child being even darker than her first husband? I definitely think her husband was the better human being. Maybe some of that was a sense of relief, but his immediate acceptance of the child showed his kindness and humanity. 6mo

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Librarybelle I cannot say that Effie is the strongest. She echoes the prejudice of the time with her feelings toward her daughter‘s skin color and feeling the need to cover up her daughter. 6mo

Read4life She abandoned her child and then had her cover up her skin. Could it be that she feared what would happen to her child if the truth was found out about her? I just don‘t know. She definitely underestimated her own husband. 6mo

dabbe I believe Britain was a tad more understanding than America with mixed racial marriages--a tad. Maybe that's also why Munro only waited TWO minutes before accepting the child, and in the American version he waited TEN. It is a hard pill to also swallow re: Effie leaving her child in America where prejudice was worse. I know she had yellow fever, but ... 6mo

Aimeesue I wonder if it would have been worse for both of them if Effie had stayed in Atlanta? Georgia is still pretty racially divided in places. Though why it would have been better to leave the child with a (presumably white) Scottish nurse is beyond me. Maybe the class difference? 6mo

Aimeesue Effie could have left money for the nurse and the child before she left the US, right? She clearly had control of it before handing it over to Munroe. 6mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Absolutely true and an excellent point. 6mo

dabbe @Aimeesue I'm not a mother, but it's rather difficult to picture a mother leaving her child (who has yellow fever and could die like the husband) and just go on to England--regardless of the consequences in America. 6mo

Aimeesue @dabbe Maybe. But white mom + black child (or vice versa) has repercussions even today. Effie doesn‘t much go into it. We‘re missing a lot of the backstory: could she have stayed in the US? She was a Brit. I have no idea, but as a mom, there would have had to have been something sending me back to the UK. Feels like maybe we‘re missing something. 6mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Well, there's the question. Why leave so much hanging that we can't figure out? What then was Doyle's overall purpose? To entertain us with this story? Of all the ones we've read, this one is (to me) NOT entertaining. What's the point, then? 6mo

32 likes12 comments

dabbe

The Yellow Face | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
@Cuilin
#TheYellowFace
#Discussion

What did y'all think? 🤩

Cuilin Holmes really is a bystander and I think it begs the question as to what Conan Doyle‘s intention was with this story. 6mo

CatLass007 @Cuilin I was wondering why Conan Doyle wrote this story. So many of his own prejudices shine through in Holmes. For example, his antipathy towards Mormons. Why did Holmes appear to think that her first husband was still alive and stalking Effie? And when he removed the girl‘s mask, why did he laugh? Because he had made false assumptions? I would think the common reaction of the times would have been shock and anger. 6mo

Librarybelle Not only was Holmes a bystander, but his initial solution was wrong. Watson points out that Holmes was not always correct - did the public want an example of this? To me, this seems like a story very politically loaded. 6mo

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Cuilin @CatLass007 interesting. I did see the laugh as something more positive. He understood Munro‘s personality and would accept Effie‘s daughter. A case of “all is well, that ends well”. 6mo

IndoorDame I think the “why” here has a lot of depth. Holmes plays a cheerleader/psychiatrist, something he‘s notoriously bad at & uninterested in. His assumptions are totally wrong, mainly because he always disregards women & this case is all about actions taken by women. But in the end a woman is the villain of the story. Doyle shines a spotlight on race relations & interracial relationships, but doesn‘t really offer any clear answers except it‘s messy. 6mo

dabbe Perhaps Doyle wants to send a message of acceptance as shown through Munro's actions towards Effie's daughter. And perhaps Watson wants to show his readers that Holmes is a flawed character and makes mistakes. Even Holmes chastises himself--“Watson, ... if it should ever strike you that I am getting a little over-confident in my powers ... kindly whisper ‘Norbury‘ in my ear, and I shall be infinitely obliged to you“--showing that he has a heart. 6mo

Aimeesue I think Holmes suspected the husband because that‘s the logical first suspect. No one ever suspects a CHILD - it‘s always the Ex. Still true today, because statistically, that‘s the simplest and most likely answer. Like the warning to doctors about diagnoses, “When you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras.” The most likely answer is usually the answer. 6mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Good point. But why not suspect the mother? Women usually are the first to be suspect in any situation. #patriarchysucks 6mo

Aimeesue @dabbe Whose mother? Effie‘s not a suspect in Holmes‘ mind because she‘s the target. Who has motive to blackmail her? Because blackmail‘s what it looks like from Holmes‘ POV 6mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Is she the target? Her husband speaks about her as if she is the guilty one--skulking about at night, not answering his questions, etc. The husband judges her far more harshly than Holmes--who doesn't judge her at all. 6mo

Aimeesue @dabbe At the start, Holmes sees Effie‘s actions as a result of someone threatening/blackmailing her, so he suspects the 1st husband of pressuring her, and E. acquiescing to his demands, which is why he looks on her sympathetically, right? Munroe judges her from a self-centered POV -she‘s keeping secrets from ME, not Gosh, this is odd, you OK, Effie? Holmes is looking at a wider view, and accepts Munroe‘s belief that E is still in love with him (edited) 6mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Agree 💯. 6mo

34 likes12 comments

dabbe

The Yellow Face | Arthur Conan Doyle

#NoPlaceLikeHolmes
@Cuilin
#TheYellowFace
#Discussion

What did y'all think? 🤩

CatLass007 I was thinking that a story about an interracial marriage that produced a child would have cost Conan Doyle more than a few readers. Such a story might very well have had that same effect on readers today. Humans really haven‘t made much progress when it comes to hating people who are different. I also thought that Effie‘s own prejudice showed when she said that it was unfortunate that her daughter had even darker skin than her late husband. 6mo

Librarybelle I was actually shocked by this story…I suppose it could be considered progressive, but at least in the US, it was illegal to have an interracial relationship at the time. I don‘t know a lot about Conan Doyle personally - was he a supporter of equality? I feel like I need a history lesson to better understand UK attitudes toward this; US readers would not have been pleased. 6mo

IndoorDame @Librarybelle she was in the US for her first marriage in this story 6mo

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Librarybelle @IndoorDame I know…that would at least conflict with the law in the US at this time. For Conan Doyle to present this makes me want to dive more into the UK thoughts at this time. Sorry I was not more clear! 6mo

Read4life I remember reading this when I was VERY young and not understanding the big deal. In later years, as I became more aware of what this story was referring to, I was angry it needed to be written and happy Doyle put Sherlock in this scenario. Today, as a woman in an interracial marriage with children, I‘m saddened that we haven‘t come very far as humans. 6mo

dabbe @Librarybelle I wonder if Doyle knew this when he wrote it or if it was another of his mistakes (like the errors he wrote about the Mormons). Maybe he didn't know it was illegal since he didn't have Effie address that challenge on top of the marriage itself to a black man. 6mo

Librarybelle @dabbe Maybe??? That is a good point too about his errors regarding the Mormons. 6mo

Aimeesue Story was published in 1892, right when the US had just extended the Chinese Exclusion Act, which banned Chinese laborers from immigrating to the US. All the racist “Yellow Peril” nonsense probably drove that decision. 6mo

Aimeesue @dabbe I read Effie‘s explanation that her daughter was darker than her husband as maybe indicating that he was able to pass as white, at least at times? There are a lot of stories about people who passed and marrying white spouses being afraid of having children for exactly that reason. 6mo

Aimeesue “She touched a spring, and the front hinged back. There was a portrait within of a man strikingly handsome and intelligent-looking, but bearing unmistakable signs upon his features of his African descent." That says that he was a light skinned Black man, no? 6mo

dabbe @Aimeesue Agree 💯. 6mo

Bookwomble @Librarybelle @Aimeesue You might find this book interesting, as it collects accounts of the experiences of Black people in pre-20th century Britain 🙂

Black Voices on Britain

6mo

Librarybelle @Bookwomble Thank you! I‘ll have to check it out! 6mo

Aimeesue @Bookwomble Thanks for the rec! Looks really interesting, though probably full of horrible experiences. 6mo

Bookwomble @Aimeesue Not too full of horrible experiences as this was mainly before the advancement of race theory, and ordinary British people generally saw that they had more in common with Black people escaping from oppression than they had with the British aristocrats that they were themselves oppressed by. Obviously, times and attitudes were still very different. The editor, Hakim Adi, is a prof of Black British history, so he knows his stuff. 6mo

Aimeesue @Bookwomble Oh, good! 6mo

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