Litsy

Sundiver | David Brin

so-so

I had read this many, many years ago and reread it just now. I'm not sure I liked it any better second time around. There were interesting sci-fi ideas but I found the plot dragged with its inconsistent pacing.

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#RedTaylorsVersion @Emilymdxn 3mo

Ruthiella Did you read the further books in the series? 3mo

TheAromaofBooks Great progress!! 3mo

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kwmg40 @Ruthiella No, I haven‘t yet, but I probably will, at some point. I‘ve heard that the sequels are better than the first book. 3mo

Librarybelle Hooray!! 3mo

MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm I‘ve read the second in the series, Startide Rising, and I enjoyed it much more than Sundiver. Although I also enjoyed Sundiver. 😅 Haven‘t read the third yet, but I am eager to get to it. 3mo

kwmg40 @MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm Glad to hear that you liked the sequel. I'll add it to the TBR stack. 3mo

38 likes7 comments

Ruthiella

Sundiver | David Brin

A couple of questions for any who have finished this month‘s #ClassicLSFBC pick. If anyone would like to be added or removed from the tag list, let me know.

2. In some ways this is primarily a mystery novel. Did you like that aspect of it? Did you guess who the real culprit was?

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CatLass007 I‘ve only finished about a third of the book so far so I don‘t know who the culprit is. But I hadn‘t considered it a mystery until you posted this question so it‘s something new to consider. 3mo

kwmg40 I did like the mystery aspect (and did not guess the culprit ahead of time), but overall, I found the sci-fi ideas that Brin presented more interesting than the other aspects. I thought the plot and character development were on the weak side. 3mo

kwmg40 One thing that marred my enjoyment of the book was that I'd read an e-book version borrowed from my library, and it was full of OCR (scanning) errors. It took me a while to figure out why one character was referring to the women as “ferns“ (it was supposed to be “fems“). 3mo

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Ruthiella I found the whole Jekyll/Hyde thing with Jacob a little weird. I got that he‘s meant to be the protagonist, but more focus on Fagin, say, would have been more interesting to me. 3mo

MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm I enjoyed the mystery aspect but like @kwmg40 I enjoyed the sci-fi ideas much more. I didn‘t guess the culprit and honestly was gutted because I‘d grown fond of Culla and had been hoping for a redemption story. 😅 3mo

Ruthiella @MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm I liked Culla as well. He was very sympathetic. 😢 3mo

38 likes6 comments

Ruthiella

Sundiver | David Brin

A couple of questions for any who have finished this month‘s #ClassicLSFBC pick. If anyone would like to be added or removed from the tag list, let me know. 😃

1. How do you feel about the concept of”uplifting” another species? Is it ethical? Is it plausible?

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CatLass007 I think the reason for humans uplifting others is so they will know that they‘re not alone in this world. Little did they know when they began just how not-alone they are. It seems to me that many races in the galaxy uplift other species is so they will have their own clients, although the fact that they are called clients and not slaves is disingenuous. Other races who uplift seem to believe that they are doing something good. 3mo

RamsFan1963 The question for me about uplifting is are the species being asked if they want this upgrade? Did humans just decide that chimpanzees and dolphins are closest to humans in intelligence so they got the upgrade whether they wanted it or not? It wouldn't be ethical to uplift a species simply for human benefit or worse human curiosity. 3mo

Ruthiella @CatLass007 I think the concept of uplift is very paternalistic here - “We know better than you and you need to be more like us.” You are right that the difference between client and indentured servant is not much as portrayed in this novel. 3mo

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Ruthiella @RamsFan1963 It‘s never addressed but it does make me queasy. If dolphins or chimps evolve on their own, fine. But humans are manipulating them genetically to make this happen. To be fair, if dolphins or chimp evolved on their own IRL, humans would freak out and probably try to surpress them. 3mo

CatLass007 @Ruthiella I specifically used the word slave for a reason. Living in the South I‘m very aware of the depredations of slavery. Calling it anything else is trying to downplay reality. It was my understanding that humans didn‘t treat the animals they uplifted the same as ETs treated their clients. Jeffrey wasn‘t angry with those who uplifted him, he was angry with LaRoq and those like him who didn‘t recognize him as an equal. (cont)⬇️ (edited) 3mo

CatLass007 He was angry with Cullah for not rebelling and demanding freedom. He was angry with the ETs who enslaved Cullah. My late friend Collier, were he in Jeff‘s position, would have called Cullah a “Tom.” It‘s ugly to say but it‘s a term that‘s still used. It‘s obvious from Martine‘s reaction to Jeff‘s death that she considers those who have been uplifted to be inferior. That‘s a pretty typical human reaction, looking down on others to make (cont)⬇️ 3mo

CatLass007 them feel better about themselves. I feel extremely angry with the way people who might be mentally ill or might commit a crime are not even citizens. We can look at forced sterilization of Black people in our not too distant past and see it as a possible future. We can look at Hitler‘s “final solution” and see a presidential candidate who quotes Mein Kamf and envision a possible future. We can look at entire families with (cont)⬇️ (edited) 3mo

CatLass007 Japanese ancestry having their property stolen and being forced into prison camps. The way we have treated others in our past is almost a predictor of the future. I know I‘ve gotten off track here. The question is whether uplifting other species is moral. I guess I think it‘s more moral than a whole heluva lot of other things humans have done to one another. 3mo

CatLass007 And when we get to the question about the Cherokee people and the Trail of Tears, I‘ll have plenty to say about that too. 3mo

kwmg40 I'm not sure I managed to get a good understanding of uplift and what David Brin was trying to convey through Sundiver. At first, it made me think of colonialism but that's probably too simplistic a view. Based on a glance at Brin's writings on this topic (https://www.davidbrin.com/uplift.html), there are clearly many ethically issues to consider. 3mo

RamsFan1963 @Ruthiella I agree with you about the natural evolution of chimps and dolphins, and how it would weird out humans. Much like other colonizing groups, humans looked on the chimps and dolphins as being lesser, expecting them to be so grateful to mankind for uplifting them. If I was a chimp or dolphin I'd be pissed at being treated like second hand citizens. 3mo

Ruthiella @kwmg40 Thanks for the link! It definitely sounds like Brin has thought about the pros and cons of uplifting. From what I have read on Goodreads, his other two books in the Uplift series are better. Maybe they delve more into the ethical aspects of it and the POV of an uplifted Dolphin or Chimp. (edited) 3mo

Ruthiella @RamsFan1963 I also think that these other species might not always be “grateful enough” to humans. And considering a chimpanzee‘s physical superiority, I would not want one angry with me. 3mo

MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm @Ruthiella I can attest that the next book is better and does a much better job of exploring the ethics of uplifting and what it means for both sides. 3mo

MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm The idea of uplifting a species is definitely nuanced and sticky. I think I‘d be against any kind of alteration of a species in the effort to “evolve” them. But if a species was already evolving towards that end and capable of requesting support/sponsorship/etc, then I‘d be more inclined to be comfortable with it. As far as plausible, I think there‘s a distant future where we could potentially mutate a species into something like in the novel. 3mo

Ruthiella @MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm Thanks for the confirmation on the next books in the series. The concept of uplift is a really good one exactly because it raises all those sticky issues, which can make for great fiction. And I like the idea of accessing another species‘ intelligence to see what we humans can learn about how we could potentially alter our way of being for the better. 3mo

MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm @Ruthiella The next book is also set further into the future and has a completely different cast of characters. 3mo

35 likes17 comments

KathyWheeler

Sundiver | David Brin

pick

This is really toward the low end of the pick scale for me. It had some issues with pacing. I‘m glad I read it, though I doubt I‘ll read others in the series. I just didn‘t get the motivations for some of the characters actions. #ClassicLSFBC #audiowalk

22 likes

KathyWheeler

Sundiver | David Brin

There‘s not been tons of action in this book, and suddenly there‘s now tons of action! I‘ve got a couple of hours left, so I should finish soon. Beautiful day for a walk with temps in the 70s. #ClassicLSFBC #audiowalk

Ruthiella I‘ve not got to the action yet…but I think it‘s about to start. Dr. Jefferey‘s ship has just been presumed destroyed… 4mo

18 likes1 comment

RamsFan1963

Sundiver | David Brin

pick

97/150 I'm pretty sure I read this when it first came out, but it's been long enough that I've forgotten most of the plot. Humans have discovered plasma beings inside the sun, and using the Sundiver project, seek to make contact. This could have leaned toward a hard science science-fiction, but Brin creates interesting characters, human and alien, that adds more dramatic points to the story. 4 ⭐⭐⭐⭐
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RamsFan1963 97th book finished for #Readaway2024 @DieAReader @GHABI4ROSES @Andrew65 4mo

Lesliereadsalot Got this one coming up to read. 4mo

DieAReader 🥳❤️‍🔥Excellent!! 4mo

52 likes3 comments

RamsFan1963

Sundiver | David Brin

#whereareyoumonday I am literally in the heart of the Sun with the crew of the Sundiver project.
@Cupcake12

Ruthiella He he he. I thought about using that one for my post today. ☀️ 4mo

Lesliereadsalot Looking forward to this one! 4mo

45 likes2 comments

KathyWheeler

Sundiver | David Brin

Got two walks in today so more listening to Sundiver. I‘ve been trading it on and off with Kris Kristofferson though, so I haven‘t gotten as far in as I might have otherwise. #audiowalk

17 likes

KathyWheeler

Sundiver | David Brin

This is mostly a fast listen for me except for that one part where a character went on too long about the history of a particular alien civilization. #audiowalk

14 likes

KathyWheeler

Sundiver | David Brin

Started Sundiver for #ClassicLSFBC and for my. Ew #audiowalk book. I think I‘m going to like it, but as with many older books, I‘m going to have to adapt to sexist attitudes. Of course an attractive female biologist is going to run around barely clothed all the time. 🙄 Alligators and turtles again.

10 likes

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