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kwmg40
Sundiver | David Brin
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Mehso-so

I had read this many, many years ago and reread it just now. I'm not sure I liked it any better second time around. There were interesting sci-fi ideas but I found the plot dragged with its inconsistent pacing.

#ClassicLSFBC @RamsFan1963 @Ruthiella
#192025 #1980 @Librarybelle
#HauntedShelf #Flerken @PuddleJumper
#AfterDarkBingo #BodyCountBingo #GottaCatchEmAllSpooky
#gottacatchemall (18. Vespiquen: Yellow cover)

Ruthiella Did you read the further books in the series? 1w
TheAromaofBooks Great progress!! 1w
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kwmg40 @Ruthiella No, I haven‘t yet, but I probably will, at some point. I‘ve heard that the sequels are better than the first book. 1w
Librarybelle Hooray!! 1w
MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm I‘ve read the second in the series, Startide Rising, and I enjoyed it much more than Sundiver. Although I also enjoyed Sundiver. 😅 Haven‘t read the third yet, but I am eager to get to it. 6d
kwmg40 @MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm Glad to hear that you liked the sequel. I'll add it to the TBR stack. 4d
38 likes7 comments
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RamsFan1963
Ringworld | Larry Niven
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The voting is done, and the #ClassicLSFBC selections for November & December are made. Ringworld will be the pick for November, and Doomsday Book will be December's selection.
@Bookwomble @Ruthiella @TheSpineView @BookmarkTavern @wanderinglynn @Readergrrl @Johanna414 @Lizpixie @BookBelle84 @Larkken @julesG @Deblovestoread @majkia @LeticiaToraci @sebrittainclark

Ruthiella Looking forward to reading both! 1w
TheSpineView Excellent! 1w
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CatLass007 Yay! 1w
AnishaInkspill Ringworld - just checked, there's at least a 4 week wait for me but just listening to the sample, what an interesting opening 1w
RamsFan1963 @AnishaInkspill RIngworld is available free on Spotify, if you have a premium account. I checked Audible, but it's not part of Audible Plus, so it costs. 1w
AnishaInkspill @RamsFan1963 no I don't have it, I've reserved it on Libby and maybe it will be than 4+ week wait 1w
44 likes7 comments
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Ruthiella
Sundiver | David Brin
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A couple of questions for any who have finished this month‘s #ClassicLSFBC pick. If anyone would like to be added or removed from the tag list, let me know.

2. In some ways this is primarily a mystery novel. Did you like that aspect of it? Did you guess who the real culprit was?

CatLass007 I‘ve only finished about a third of the book so far so I don‘t know who the culprit is. But I hadn‘t considered it a mystery until you posted this question so it‘s something new to consider. 1w
kwmg40 I did like the mystery aspect (and did not guess the culprit ahead of time), but overall, I found the sci-fi ideas that Brin presented more interesting than the other aspects. I thought the plot and character development were on the weak side. 1w
kwmg40 One thing that marred my enjoyment of the book was that I'd read an e-book version borrowed from my library, and it was full of OCR (scanning) errors. It took me a while to figure out why one character was referring to the women as “ferns“ (it was supposed to be “fems“). 1w
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Ruthiella I found the whole Jekyll/Hyde thing with Jacob a little weird. I got that he‘s meant to be the protagonist, but more focus on Fagin, say, would have been more interesting to me. 1w
MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm I enjoyed the mystery aspect but like @kwmg40 I enjoyed the sci-fi ideas much more. I didn‘t guess the culprit and honestly was gutted because I‘d grown fond of Culla and had been hoping for a redemption story. 😅 7d
Ruthiella @MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm I liked Culla as well. He was very sympathetic. 😢 7d
37 likes6 comments
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Ruthiella
Sundiver | David Brin
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A couple of questions for any who have finished this month‘s #ClassicLSFBC pick. If anyone would like to be added or removed from the tag list, let me know. 😃

1. How do you feel about the concept of”uplifting” another species? Is it ethical? Is it plausible?

CatLass007 I think the reason for humans uplifting others is so they will know that they‘re not alone in this world. Little did they know when they began just how not-alone they are. It seems to me that many races in the galaxy uplift other species is so they will have their own clients, although the fact that they are called clients and not slaves is disingenuous. Other races who uplift seem to believe that they are doing something good. 1w
RamsFan1963 The question for me about uplifting is are the species being asked if they want this upgrade? Did humans just decide that chimpanzees and dolphins are closest to humans in intelligence so they got the upgrade whether they wanted it or not? It wouldn't be ethical to uplift a species simply for human benefit or worse human curiosity. 1w
Ruthiella @CatLass007 I think the concept of uplift is very paternalistic here - “We know better than you and you need to be more like us.” You are right that the difference between client and indentured servant is not much as portrayed in this novel. 1w
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Ruthiella @RamsFan1963 It‘s never addressed but it does make me queasy. If dolphins or chimps evolve on their own, fine. But humans are manipulating them genetically to make this happen. To be fair, if dolphins or chimp evolved on their own IRL, humans would freak out and probably try to surpress them. 1w
CatLass007 @Ruthiella I specifically used the word slave for a reason. Living in the South I‘m very aware of the depredations of slavery. Calling it anything else is trying to downplay reality. It was my understanding that humans didn‘t treat the animals they uplifted the same as ETs treated their clients. Jeffrey wasn‘t angry with those who uplifted him, he was angry with LaRoq and those like him who didn‘t recognize him as an equal. (cont)⬇️ (edited) 1w
CatLass007 He was angry with Cullah for not rebelling and demanding freedom. He was angry with the ETs who enslaved Cullah. My late friend Collier, were he in Jeff‘s position, would have called Cullah a “Tom.” It‘s ugly to say but it‘s a term that‘s still used. It‘s obvious from Martine‘s reaction to Jeff‘s death that she considers those who have been uplifted to be inferior. That‘s a pretty typical human reaction, looking down on others to make (cont)⬇️ 1w
CatLass007 them feel better about themselves. I feel extremely angry with the way people who might be mentally ill or might commit a crime are not even citizens. We can look at forced sterilization of Black people in our not too distant past and see it as a possible future. We can look at Hitler‘s “final solution” and see a presidential candidate who quotes Mein Kamf and envision a possible future. We can look at entire families with (cont)⬇️ (edited) 1w
CatLass007 Japanese ancestry having their property stolen and being forced into prison camps. The way we have treated others in our past is almost a predictor of the future. I know I‘ve gotten off track here. The question is whether uplifting other species is moral. I guess I think it‘s more moral than a whole heluva lot of other things humans have done to one another. 1w
CatLass007 And when we get to the question about the Cherokee people and the Trail of Tears, I‘ll have plenty to say about that too. 1w
kwmg40 I'm not sure I managed to get a good understanding of uplift and what David Brin was trying to convey through Sundiver. At first, it made me think of colonialism but that's probably too simplistic a view. Based on a glance at Brin's writings on this topic (https://www.davidbrin.com/uplift.html), there are clearly many ethically issues to consider. 1w
RamsFan1963 @Ruthiella I agree with you about the natural evolution of chimps and dolphins, and how it would weird out humans. Much like other colonizing groups, humans looked on the chimps and dolphins as being lesser, expecting them to be so grateful to mankind for uplifting them. If I was a chimp or dolphin I'd be pissed at being treated like second hand citizens. 1w
Ruthiella @kwmg40 Thanks for the link! It definitely sounds like Brin has thought about the pros and cons of uplifting. From what I have read on Goodreads, his other two books in the Uplift series are better. Maybe they delve more into the ethical aspects of it and the POV of an uplifted Dolphin or Chimp. (edited) 1w
Ruthiella @RamsFan1963 I also think that these other species might not always be “grateful enough” to humans. And considering a chimpanzee‘s physical superiority, I would not want one angry with me. 1w
MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm @Ruthiella I can attest that the next book is better and does a much better job of exploring the ethics of uplifting and what it means for both sides. 7d
MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm The idea of uplifting a species is definitely nuanced and sticky. I think I‘d be against any kind of alteration of a species in the effort to “evolve” them. But if a species was already evolving towards that end and capable of requesting support/sponsorship/etc, then I‘d be more inclined to be comfortable with it. As far as plausible, I think there‘s a distant future where we could potentially mutate a species into something like in the novel. 7d
Ruthiella @MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm Thanks for the confirmation on the next books in the series. The concept of uplift is a really good one exactly because it raises all those sticky issues, which can make for great fiction. And I like the idea of accessing another species‘ intelligence to see what we humans can learn about how we could potentially alter our way of being for the better. 7d
MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm @Ruthiella The next book is also set further into the future and has a completely different cast of characters. 7d
34 likes17 comments
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TheSpineView
Untitled | Untitled
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Yuki_Onna 🤩 2w
julesG Ook! 2w
TheAromaofBooks Woohoo!!! 1w
43 likes3 comments
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RamsFan1963
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The voting is now open for #ClassicLSFBC selections for November & December. As we have done previously, the book with the most votes will be November's selection and the runner-up with be for December. Voting ends on Halloween. #ClassicLSFBC @Bookwomble @Ruthiella @TheSpineView @BookmarkTavern @wanderinglynn @Readergrrl @Johanna414

The_Literary_Jedi Nov: The Centauri Device & Dec: Ringworld 2w
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Ruthiella I vote for 2w
MegaWhoppingCosmicBookwyrm I vote Ringworld. 2w
Bookwomble Argh! Three of these I really want to read! I'll vote 1st Centauri Device as I nominated it, and I've been meaning to re-read the Ringworld novels for a while, and as it's already garnering support, I'll vote that 2nd. It's good to have a such a string field to pick from 😊 2w
rwmg My vote goes to Doomsday Book and Herland, in either order 2w
CatLass007 Doomsday Book gets a great big YES from me. I will give a regular-size yes to Ringworld. I already own both of them but have never read either. 2w
Deblovestoread Herland and Ringworld 2w
TheSpineView FYI, Herland is the 2nd book of a series. These may need to be read in order. 2w
TheSpineView My vote is: Doomsday Book and Ringworld 2w
julesG I'm going to sit back and see what the outcome is going to be. 😉 2w
kwmg40 Ringworld and Herland 2w
Larkken Doomsday book 2w
AnishaInkspill Herland and Doomsdaybook, Herland I have, and I just had a look and maybe able to get Doomsday Book 2w
Bookwomble @TheSpineView I've read Herland, and it can be read as a standalone novel, though the third in the "trilogy" is a direct sequel to it. The idea of it being part of a trilogy arose in retrospect when critical analysis of Gilman's works identified a feminist utopian strand starting in an earlier work that wasn't narratively connected to the other two. ? 2w
TheSpineView @Bookwomble Good to know. Thanks! 2w
44 likes17 comments
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RamsFan1963
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With October rapidly slipping away, I hope everyone was able to find and enjoy a copy of Sundiver. It's now time to think about November & December selections for #ClassicLSFBC. If there are no objections, we will do it the same as the August-October picks, the book that gets the most votes will be November's choice and the second most will go to December. It gives people more time to locate the selections. Nominations are now open.

CatLass007 I‘m thinking Connie Willis… Anything of hers… But this one comes to mind 3w
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RamsFan1963 Ooops!! I forgot to add our newest member to the selection process. I apologize @AnishaInkspill 3w
RamsFan1963 I think I will nominate one of Frank Herbert's best non-Dune books 3w
Bookwomble Harrison's 1974 novel parodied but also rehabilitated the Space Opera genre and is cited as inspiration by Iain M. Banks for his own sci fi works. 3w
Bookwomble @RamsFan1963 Oh, I've got that to read, too. 😄 3w
Ruthiella I‘ll vote from everyone else‘s nominations. 3w
AnishaInkspill @RamsFan1963 -- no worries 😀 I understand, and thanks for including me 3w
AnishaInkspill my nomination (edited) 3w
45 likes11 comments
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Riveted_Reader_Melissa
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Up next for the rest of this year for #SheSaid… put in your library holds and interlibrary loans.

Please add your recommendations for next year in the comments!

Riveted_Reader_Melissa With our current read… this one is moving up my to-read list fast. 4w
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vlwelser I like this book but it's not blowing my socks off 4w
vlwelser Sorry. I'm out in the sun. I thought this was the discussion post. 4w
CatLass007 I‘m getting a lot of recommendations from Audible because of the books I‘ve listened to for this group. I‘m thinking something by Bell Hooks, maybe 4w
CatLass007 I also think Pauli Murray would be a wonderful subject about whom we could read or read one of the books she has written. 4w
Riveted_Reader_Melissa @CatLass007 Yes, you commented here! 3w
CatLass007 Simone de Beauvoir 3w
CatLass007 In the #ClassicLSFBC we are voting on November‘s selection. One of the nominees is a book of fiction, Herland by Charlotte Perkins Gilman, seems to fit right in with the books we‘ve been reading for #SheSaid. Gilman was an early 20th Century feminist. Her best known work probably is The Yellow Wallpaper. Herland is about a utopian society which consists entirely of women. What happens when three young men search for and find this community? 2w
CatLass007 Ooorrrrr, I think discussing a book by or about Josephine Baker could prove both entertaining and enlightening. There will be a memoir released in February 2025 called Fearless and Free. Agent Josephine by Damien Lewis is the true story of her activities with the French Resistance during WWII and was released 2022. 1w
Singout Citizen 1w
23 likes56 comments
review
KathyWheeler
Sundiver | David Brin
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Pickpick

This is really toward the low end of the pick scale for me. It had some issues with pacing. I‘m glad I read it, though I doubt I‘ll read others in the series. I just didn‘t get the motivations for some of the characters actions. #ClassicLSFBC #audiowalk

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KathyWheeler
Sundiver | David Brin
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There‘s not been tons of action in this book, and suddenly there‘s now tons of action! I‘ve got a couple of hours left, so I should finish soon. Beautiful day for a walk with temps in the 70s. #ClassicLSFBC #audiowalk

Ruthiella I‘ve not got to the action yet…but I think it‘s about to start. Dr. Jefferey‘s ship has just been presumed destroyed… 1mo
18 likes1 comment