Litsy

Romeo and Juliet (Updated) | William Shakespeare

Romeo goes from his wedding to murder (self defence?), meanwhile back at the homestead Capulet is unknowingly pushing Juliet into bigamy. A lot happened in this act. For some reason, I don‘t remember this play moving at such a clip.
#Shakespeare #RomeoAndJuliet #shakespearereadalong

merelybookish, Graywacke

GingerAntics @readinginthedark @batsy @Lcsmcat @TheBookHippie @Sunraven @Trashcanman @IamIamIam @ladyneverwhere @MoonWitch94 @catebutler @CoffeeNBooks @jewright @saresmoore @rabbitprincess @Balibee146 @kathedron @Mtroiano @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @MrsMalaprop @Gezemice @cuilin @erzascarletbookgasm 3y

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CoffeeNBooks This act does move very quickly! And there's a lot going on. I was surprised at how quickly the nurse encouraged Juliet to forget about Romeo and go ahead and marry Paris. 3y

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Lcsmcat I‘ve always loved Mercutio‘s speeches! Both his bantering with Benvolio, and his “death speech.” In my family the “it‘s not so wide as a church door but ‘twil do, ‘twil serve” is the common response to an injury. 3y

Lcsmcat @CoffeeNBooks Yes, Nurse is not very steadfast, is she? 3y

batsy I too was surprised at how much I didn't remember! I love the way language is used in Mercutio and Julie's speeches, just like with how it was with Friar Lawrence in Act 2. Also the clever way Juliet talks to her parents & the coded meanings... I have a whole new appreciation for Juliet on this re-read. And Capulet's speech at the end "Graze where you will, you shall not house with me" etc.—patriarchy in a nutshell. 3y

batsy Certain lines are just so beautiful, like: "Give me my Romeo. And when I shall die,
Take him and cut him out in little stars,
And he will make the face of heaven so fine
That all the world will be in love with night
And pay no worship to the garish sun." 3y

Lcsmcat @batsy The language is so sophisticated in this play, isn‘t it? 3y

LitStephanie Why do you think old Capulet was suddenly in such a rush to marry Juliet off? Does he think it will comfort Juliet, and then once he has given his offer to Paris he can't go back on it? Or is it existential fear brought on by Tybalt's death? Is he thinking that since Juliet or he himself could die any time, he needs to get his affairs in order? 3y

LitStephanie I love how fast the action moves. Juliet and Romeo's conversation in bed seems to me the slowest part of the play, and the language is so delightful that no parts seem too long. 3y

CoffeeNBooks @LitStephanie I was wondering the same thing about the sudden rush for Juliet to marry Paris. Especially since she and her family were supposed to be in mourning. 3y

LitStephanie @CoffeeNBooks yes! He even says they will make it small so it doesn't seem like disrespect to the dead. 3y

Graywacke I think Shakespeare‘s Mercutio in scene one here is a masterpiece. Mercutio shines through, not even overshadowed by his bitter curse. His mastery of the situation, even of his own death is complete. He won me over here in this scene way back in high school, and I found it brilliant again in this revisit. (edited) 3y

Graywacke @batsy Juliet surprised me too. She is really clever (despite the dramatic emotions. Goodness, give the Nurse a little break). Side note: I‘m not sure whether it deepens or ruins that quote when we discover the double meaning of “die”. (The uncharacteristically prudish Signet edition doesn‘t mention it. Actually it overlooks at lot of sexual double entendres in this play.) 3y

LitStephanie @Graywacke this play is all about sexual double meanings. I also love Mercutio. He has such a sharp, quick mind, and he's obviously the party star of the group--that cool friend who has connections in lots of places, knows how to fight, and is always fun. His death is tragic. Juliet us so much more likeable than Romeo. Smart, moral, loyal, and capable. She drives a lot of the action. 3y

Graywacke @LitStephanie @CoffeeNBooks - agree about Capulet‘s odd rush for marriage with (richly named) Paris. I wonder if the timing really matters, if Capulet had given her a few months whether it would make a difference. Maybe it‘s plot-necessary just to maintain and tightens the intensity. 3y

LitStephanie So weird, I still can't see any of our Rom. posts by searching with the hashtag. Anyone else having that problem? Is it possible an administrator accidentally blocked visibility for me if that is even possible? 3y

Graywacke @LitStephanie careless Romeo is ultimately responsible for everything… I didn‘t know that before this reread. 3y

Graywacke @LitStephanie hashtag works for me: #Shakespearereadalong 3y

LitStephanie The Nurse character loves Juliet, and that's nice, but she is a weak, waffling person. Bigamy was a crime and a serious sin at this time, and disloyalty to one's husband was just as bad. Yet she cousels Juliet to sell her soul, so to speak, for security. It is practical and understandable, but I don't blame Juliet for thinking badly of her for it. 3y

LitStephanie @Graywacke not for me. 3y

Graywacke @LitStephanie 😕 3y

Graywacke @LitStephanie on the nurse - despite all that - the nurse is always loyal and never intends harm. (And she has put up with a lot). I think Juliet‘s quick disregard of all that is sad and (appropriately) childish. 3y

GingerAntics @CoffeeNBooks that did surprise me. “Sure I helped you marry that other guy, but now marry this guy. No one will know. I‘ll pay off the friar.” 🤷🏼‍♀️ 3y

GingerAntics @batsy Juliet is definitely not a pushover. I don‘t remember that part at all. I can just imagine when they don‘t focus on Juliet‘s steadfastness and her standing up for herself in high schools. 3y

GingerAntics @LitStephanie Hm. I hadn‘t thought of Capulet‘s actions in that way. Maybe he was getting his affairs in order. Or maybe he needs the bride price? Maybe he‘s not as powerful as he‘d like everyone to believe. 3y

GingerAntics @LitStephanie is it practical, though? As you said, it‘s a crime. The friar won‘t marry her again, so who will marry Juliet and Paris? The nurse confuses me so much in this act. She was so loyal to Juliet up until now. She just turned for no apparently reason. Bigamy could mean certain death to a woman in this time period. This isn‘t what‘s good for Juliet at all. The nurse is leading her astray now. 3y

GingerAntics @Graywacke how is it appropriately childish? Juliet is a young adult in this society. She‘s not a child at all. As for the nurse, pushing Juliet into bigamy would likely lead to Juliet‘s death. How is that intending no harm? The nurse would be fully aware of the consequences for a woman married to two men. Juliet‘s only legal options are to flee to Romeo or become a nun. Those are the only two options that will keep her from execution. 3y

Graywacke @GingerAntics oh, but I think the nurse is intended humor and is never intended to be taken seriously. And I think Juliet would know this with a little reflection. But she is self-obsessed and in-love and unable to step back and reflect on her situation. She only uses the nurse, and damns her forever because the nurse said on thing counter. That can be considered childish, and that is all I meant. 3y

GingerAntics @Graywacke I guess I don‘t see her being in love and wanting to be with her husband as self obsessed. I guess I don‘t she the nurse as humorous in this scene either. This would have to be quite dark humour, and can you blame Juliet for being over it after her father‘s behaviour? It seems to me that Juliet has had enough and was expecting loyalty, not dark humour or disloyalty. 3y

Graywacke On the nurse and bigamy. I don't think the nurse saw her suggestion as exactly sinful bigamy, or at least not in her mind. I think she was thinking, “let's pretend Romeo never happened, and marry Paris“. Seems to me a little different. And, as only four people know about the marriage, and one is banished, and the other two are talking, she has reason to believe it's possible they could just forget that little fling. 3y

LitStephanie @GingerAntics and @Graywacke Nurse is definitely a comic character, but I see it Gingerantics way, too. I think WS is really contrasting the characters of these two women in that scene. On Friar Laurence, Nurse is betting he will be too scared of the families to implicate himself and so will marry the two, but that is definitely a gamble. I think Juliet is dramatic like all young people in love but pretty level headed here. 3y

LitStephanie @Graywacke totally agree with your description of Nurse's view of the situation. She is loyal to Juliet but does not have the intellectual or moral (not the best word but can't think of a better one) capacity to even grasp why Juliet is so upset. 3y

GingerAntics @Graywacke but it‘s a legal marriage now that they‘ve consummated. A consummation that the nurse helped facilitate, by the way. The number of people who know doesn‘t change the legality. What is the friar supposed to do/say when Capulet arranges the ceremony for Juliet and Paris? He literally can‘t. 3y

GingerAntics @LitStephanie he might be afraid of the families, but he‘d be afraid of excommunication (and thus hell) and prison more one would think. Is he going to burn the church records, too? 3y

GingerAntics @LitStephanie thats kind of sad (although it feels really accurate) that the nurse can‘t grasp Juliet‘s feelings at all in this scene. 3y

Graywacke @GingerAntics i think Juliet sees it that way, and Romeo would. The nurse must not. Not sure about the friar. He‘s not a self righteous type…but probably he also would see it that way too. 3y

GingerAntics @Graywacke church law is quite clear. I agree the friar would agree with R&J on this one. 3y

LitStephanie @GingerAntics yes, the friar might be worried about burning in hell and also being caught and defrocked, depending on his faith. Juliet would also be concerned about the consequences of sin. I was just thinking about Isabel in Measure for Measure in comparison with Juliet. She wouldn't commit fornication even to save her brother's life. And greater even than the fear of Xtian hell is Juliet's love for and loyalty to Romeo. 3y

GingerAntics @LitStephanie the friar is Catholic. So he would definitely be defrocked and burn in hell. I hadn‘t thought of Isabel, but Juliet does remind me of her a little. The choice between self preservation and loyalty… and what constitutes loyalty in a given situation. Isabel‘s brother wanted to die for her virginity, so technically it was loyal to him to preserve her virginity. That is a great comparison. Totally different relationships, same dilemma. 3y

erzascarletbookgasm That‘s beautiful, I like those lines too @batsy 3y

batsy @Lcsmcat It really is! The layers of meaning woven through even the simplest exchange is quite the feat 🤩 @erzascarletbookgasm 3y

batsy @Graywacke Signet being prudish for this play, of all plays! It has let down the #SignetGang 3y

GingerAntics @batsy it‘s really hurting Signet‘s academic credibility. I was eyeing a few of their editions, but I think I‘m going to skip them now. 3y

TheBookHippie I do not remember this moving this quickly either ! @batsy I have Folgers Shakespeare this time !!! 3y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics a lot of who is loyal to whom and why I never paid attention too before. Legal once you consulate was taught to us at parochial school those who married who they had premarital sex with didn‘t sin 😳😳 I hadn‘t thought of it in decades until I read this!!! Oy … 3y

TheBookHippie @batsy I love the language in this one! 3y

TheBookHippie @Graywacke forget the little fling 😂😂 lots of nuns said this to friends of mine! I spit out my coffee laughing right now… the pretend it didn‘t happen shhhh shhh of the Catholic Church 😬 3y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie wait wait wait… you were told that if you had premarital sex (a sin), but then you married that person, it wasn‘t a sin anymore? Marriage is retroactive? That‘s interesting. I did know the whole marriage isn‘t legal until it‘s consummated, but we know R&J consummated the living daylights (moonlight?) out of that bad boy. 😏 3y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie that‘s their approach to everything, isn‘t it? Well, only if it benefits them. If it benefits someone else, forget it. They‘ve got the memory of a herd of elephants and they will extort money from you to give you the info you want. (I have a cousin who was adopted through the Catholic Church and they were extorting my uncle [his birth father] AND my cousin, and probably not even looking for the information. Don‘t get me started.) (edited) 3y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics Yup just marry who you had sex with and all is okay 😂 and yes marriage not legal unless consummated was used a ton in the history of time 😝 3y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie wow… I‘m just… I‘ve got nothing. I don‘t think I‘ve ever heard that before. So premarital sex isn‘t wrong as long as you intend to marry the person after. So not all premarital sex is wrong then. 🤯🤯🤯 That sounds like the beginning of the end for the anti-premarital sex folks to me. It‘s just a matter of time before we dismantle the rest of that nonsense. 😏 It honestly sounds like some folks are trying to cover their 🤬es. 3y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics BUT birth control is premeditated sin 🤦🏻‍♀️ goes back to CONTROL all of it. I always knew that. It‘s all just 🤯 3y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie birth control is premeditated sin? So it‘s better to have unprotected premarital sex then? 🤯🤯🤯 Did your nuts believe birth control was always sin or just when you‘re not married? 3y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics ALWAYS. But especially before marriage. 3y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie 🙄 of course 3y

mollyrotondo @TheBookHippie @Graywacke @GingerAntics Oh yes I definitely can see nuns and other Catholics like the Nurse saying “just forget this little fling that led to a wedding ceremony and marry the man your father insists on you marrying because he will provide you with a more comfortable life.” Definitely can see this happening. Whether the friar would have performed another wedding is probably most unlikely unless the family paid him. Yup if it... 3y

mollyrotondo ...if it benefits you then God will look past the sin of bigamy 😏 But i definitely see the Nurse as a bumbling character that just wants the best for Juliet but since she is unintelligent (we see from her malapropisms) she doesn‘t take into consideration the devastating consequences that could befall Juliet if she were to forget her fling. It is also interesting since we know our main characters die that not only R&J‘s actions leas to their end.. 3y

mollyrotondo ...but also the actions of the Friar and the Nurse. The Nurse gets caught up in the romance of it and the Friar uses the excuse that the marriage will hopefully bring the feuding families together. And now Nurse wants Juliet to commit the sin of bigamy. It‘s not just the lovers foolishness but the somewhat “guardians” foolishness that contributes to the tragic outcome. R&J put their secret in the hands of the wrong people. Love a WS tragedy! 3y

TheBookHippie @mollyrotondo I agree the guardians didn‘t HELP!! 3y

Graywacke @mollyrotondo seems like a good summary 3y

GingerAntics @mollyrotondo yeah, their families (and really Juliet‘s family more than Romeo‘s, his family is just sort of MIA at this point and no one on that side knows) are not helping matters. 3y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie they helped them right into that grave!!! 3y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics for sure! 3y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I feel like if their parents weren‘t being total jerks to each other, R&J would have met at the party, fallen in love, done some stupid stuff, and they both would have ended up with a secret lover (and Juliet would have to make sure hers looks like Romeo so no one would guess the baby wasn‘t his). Of course, that‘s probably not as much fun to show on stage. (edited) 3y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼I like this version! 3y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie let‘s rewrite this one, too!!! 😂🤣😂 3y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics Absolutely add it to the list! 3y

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merelybookish

Love's Labours Lost | Shakespeare William

We have reached the end! What did you think of the longest scene in Shakespeare? Was your head spinning with all the dressing up, deceiving, and witty delivery? Were you disappointed by the unusual ending? According to the marginalia in my text, the theme is "keeping one's word." Do you agree? Anyone know what honorificabilitudinitatibus means? ?
Thankful as always for this #shakespearereadalong community and all you bring to the discussion!

merelybookish @GingerAntics @Graywacke @readinginthedark @Lcsmcat @batsy @TheBookHippie @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Gezemice @jewright @Cuilin @mollyrotondo @Melismatic @Sace @Liz_M @MoonWitch94 @Sunraven @Trashcanman @IamIamIam @ladyneverwhere @erzascarletbookgasm @catebutler @CoffeeNBooks @Daisey @saresmoore @rabbitprincess @IndoorDame @Mtroiano @mhillis @kathedron @MrsMalaprop @readordierachel @teainthelibrary 4y

merelybookish @Susannah @Kristy_K @rachelm @kristenm @slategreyskies @Panic70 @Carolyn11215 @Alliterati @Wife @wanderinglynn @Jess_Read_This @greenreads 4y

mollyrotondo Keeping one‘s word? Really? I did not get that. I was reading another analysis that said how it‘s a play about growing up. The young men and women are deceiving one another playfully and falling in love like school children do, but then when word comes that the Princess‘s father died, it forced them to grow up a little more and taking life snd love seriously. I thought that was very beautiful but the play itself not so much 😂 4y

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merelybookish @mollyrotondo Oh I like that theory! It was a lot of play! And I think it somewhat fits with keeping your word. The men made a vow and then were ready to break it the next day. There is some maturity required to commit to something in word as well as deed. 4y

merelybookish @mollyrotondo Maybe you'll enjoy Titus Andronicus more. Although "enjoy" might not be the right word. ? 4y

mollyrotondo @merelybookish yes I get that too. They were not committed to that study in isolation idea lol. It makes me wonder if they will be as quick to break their vow to the women and wait a year. Are they more mature by the end to keep a vow of love in waiting? Or are they just as frivolous as they were at the beginning? 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa I loved the mixed up favors, courting etc....wasn‘t too happy with the play within a play and the end. But I guess it forced them to at least study for the year they were in morning. 4y

AllisonM89 So what is the next play and when do you start reading? Excited to jump in! 4y

merelybookish @Riveted_Reader_Melissa Yeah the play-within-the-play just seemed like another excuse for a bunch of jokes and puns. Although I guess it adds more to the immature playing around that @mollyrotondo mentioned, that they don't take anything seriously. 4y

merelybookish @AllisonM89 We are reading Titus Andronicus next. @Graywacke will be hosting so we will make sure he adds you to the group tag. I expect he will announce a start date soon but typically we have a few weeks break between each play. 4y

AllisonM89 @merelybookish got it! Thank you!! 4y

merelybookish @mollyrotondo Yeah, that is up in the air. I'm skeptical they will keep their vows. 🙂 4y

merelybookish @AllisonM89 No problem! And welcome! Always glad to have some new people join us! 4y

batsy Like @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I wasn't thrilled with the play within the play, either. That made the last scene overlong, though I loved this on the whole. It seemed like a young man's play of egotism and exuberant wordplay but with sharp lessons to learn. And it was interesting that it ends with the women putting forth a test, as it were. I am very curious to know if any of them remembered which women they were in love with after a year 🥴 4y

Cuilin So it's not called Love's Labour's Delayed, but Lost. It reminds me of summer romances when reality intervenes. I loved Berowne's wit the most, though on the whole the play was fun, though I think my preference for the Tragedies and Histories remain. 4y

mollyrotondo @batsy haha I‘d be surprised too if they remember which woman they were in love with after a year. I thought it was interesting how quick witted the women were in this play. That was something I really loved and was surprised by. It‘s a shame that it gets lost amongst the other silliness. The play within a play was so distracting. And I felt like Armado ended up being a waste of a character too. He really doesn‘t do much at the end. 4y

mollyrotondo I would have liked it more if it only focused on the would-be scholars and the Princess and her ladies. And maybe just the intellectuals and Costard for a more banal comic addition. The rest took away from the main crux of the play. 4y

Graywacke @AllisonM89 Titus Andronicus is next. We‘ll do Act I on July 19. I‘ll post the schedule later today. 4y

Melismatic I do understand after reading why Rosaline is such a coveted role to play but I‘m still searching for a great live adaptation truly appreciate all the clever word play. 4y

batsy @mollyrotondo Yes! And considering the fewer lines they had, the women did convey their wit with an economy of words 🙂 4y

Graywacke My signet edition has a note on the names - can‘t remember if we had already been over this: “The Marshal de Biron (Berowne) and Longueville were close associates of Henry, not Ferdinand, of Navarre. The Duc de Mayenne (Dumaine?) was once his enemy but later an ally. Boyet and Marcadé are the names of historical persons.” Henry of Navarre was Henry IV of France 1589-1610. 4y

Graywacke On Honorificabilitudinitatibus 🙂: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorificabilitudinitatibus 4y

TheBookHippie @batsy 🤣🤣🤣 I‘m thinking no they didn‘t remember which women!!!! Not a fan of play within play. Interesting way to get point (?) across. 4y

TheBookHippie @Cuilin I love that analogy! Yes. That is what it is. I like the histories best I think . 4y

TheBookHippie @Graywacke signet editions are calling me... 4y

Graywacke I loved this play and all of Act V. Two main thoughts on Act v: (1) over the long stretch this is 3 really difficult acts to follow, then lots of silly sonnets. Finally Act V is easy to follow. The play is the easiest part, lets peeps like me relax a bit and just enjoy the silliness. So I appreciated that and it made the length palatable. 4y

TheBookHippie Thanks for leading this I learned a ton this time. I enjoyed the women the most. Wish there was more. Parts of it reminded me of the beginning of Les Miserables when the men played and then just left the women forever. 4y

Graywacke @TheBookHippie yes, on Signet! Reliable. I decided to stick with Signet from now on (I blame @batsy 🙂) 4y

merelybookish @Melismatic I did a search for a performance as well but couldn't find any easy/available options. Even Kanopy let me down. 4y

TheBookHippie @Graywacke I think that‘s the Titus I have!!! I am happy to blame @batsy 🤣🤣in future purchases. 4y

Graywacke Second thought on Act V: I think the point that this was all for naught is a perfect touch. I don‘t believe these relationships will last out the year, although it‘s possible. I think that year-wait highlights how this is all a game, all flirtatious fun. And it highlights how there is still a serious world out there to deal with 4y

merelybookish @Cuilin Yes, good point! Presumably absence is not going to make the hearts grow stronger. 4y

batsy @Graywacke I love hearing that you enjoyed the play within the play! I on the other hand adored the silly sonnets and how they all played at being critics 😄 4y

merelybookish @Graywacke LOL. Thank you. I guess I could have googled it as well. 😂 4y

batsy @TheBookHippie @Graywacke My job here is done! #SignetGang 😂 4y

Graywacke @merelybookish so, I don‘t buy the keeping one‘s word theme. 😁 4y

Graywacke @TheBookHippie i have that Titus too. But - phew, the opening paragraph of the introduction...and the first lines of the afterword stuff. What are we getting into? 4y

merelybookish @TheBookHippie My pleasure! Appreciate our stalwarts like you who always read and participate. 😘 Eventually we are going to have to read a history. Glad someone will be looking forward to that. 🤣 4y

Graywacke @batsy oh, I loved the sonnets. But Pompey the Big is funny on an easier level. 4y

merelybookish @Graywacke a horror story. 🤢 4y

merelybookish @Graywacke and that's fair about not buying the (not) keeping one's word theme. It looks like a note by a college student. But I appreciated how tidy it was! 4y

Graywacke @Cuilin i think Berowne becomes the play‘s hero. But probably only because Rosaline is less developed (even if a more fun name to rhyme) 4y

Graywacke @batsy on the ladies‘ fewer lines - I was hoping Act V would be their chance to wax bad sonnets. Rosaline‘s would surely have been brilliant. The Bard raised up a step above that silliness. Our loss... 😕 4y

GingerAntics That sounds like a valid theme. I think another might be “being realistic.” If they had been realistic with themselves in the beginning, this would have been a much different play. Or maybe “all things in moderation.” Studying is great, but attraction is going to happen whether you like it or not. 🤷🏼‍♀️ I‘m not sure it would have been healthy to keep their words on those oaths, but I see that in the play. 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @batsy Did any stay faithful to that pledge.... and yes, I liked that princess and her ladies played them a bit, set them in their places, saw through their disguises, and set them a new challenge by the end. 4y

Graywacke @merelybookish wait, which part is the horror story? (I like the college love analogy. Sometimes it leads to life long relationships, and sometimes it‘s just scattered leaves.) 4y

merelybookish @Graywacke I was confused. I thought you were referring to Titus. This was not a horror story, unless you abhor punning. 🙃 4y

Cuilin @merelybookish yes a case of, out of sight, out of mind. 4y

erzascarletbookgasm I think the theme leans towards having moderation, as what @GingerAntics suggested? Total refrain from pleasures and love is not possible. And when they totally devote themselves to court the women, diplomatic businesses were forgotten. 4y

Graywacke @merelybookish “unless you abhor punning” ❤️ 🤣 Titus might be one to have fun making fun of. ?? Not sure yet... 4y

CoffeeNBooks I usually like Shakespeare's play within a play, but not so much this time, it was somewhat confusing. Overall, I liked Act V. 4y

mollyrotondo @Graywacke is this the signed edition you have? Titus Andronicus and Timon of Athens (Signet Classic Shakespeare) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0451529561/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_IMLaFbQ7KJK9A 4y

Graywacke @mollyrotondo yes. That‘s the edition. 4y

mollyrotondo @Graywacke thank you! I think I might order it. 4y

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