HenryVIpart1

Henry VI, Part 1 (Revised) | William Shakespeare

Things have gotten ugly for Joan. If this wasn‘t English propaganda before, it sure is now. She was pregnant? Sure. Uh-huh.
How did everyone enjoy the end of the first instalment of Henry VI?
#Shakespeare #HenryVIpart1 #shakespearereadalong

merelybookish, Graywacke

GingerAntics @readinginthedark @batsy @Lcsmcat @TheBookHippie @Sunraven @Trashcanman @IamIamIam @ladyneverwhere @MoonWitch94 @catebutler @CoffeeNBooks @jewright @saresmoore @rabbitprincess @Balibee146 @kathedron @Mtroiano @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @MrsMalaprop @Gezemice @cuilin 4y

GingerAntics @Melismatic @Sace @teainthelibrary @Susannah @kristenm @slategreyskies @Panic70 @Carolyn11215 @Alliterati @Kristy_K @Liz_M @Daisey @mhillis @Wife @wanderinglynn @Jess_Read_This @Linsy @MellieAntoinette @Yoshi-and-a-book @mollyrotondo @greenreads @LitStephanie 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa I felt like the King and Dauphan just shrugged their shoulders, decided they were done now, and moved on ...and all those good men and women who fought and gave their all, the Talbots and Joan, were basically pawns shrugged off and half forgotten already. Sadly the way it often is in war, but this ending really brought it home. 4y

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Lcsmcat @Riveted_Reader_Melissa Yes! Like there was no particular reason to end the war, or to have started it in the first place. 4y

Cuilin I‘m so behind hope to catch up today. 😳 📖 4y

Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Lcsmcat thinking of Hv‘s concerns with the human cost of war - and now all for not. (perhaps they finally saw the inevitable. ) (edited) 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics Joan‘s finale is interesting - a little bit of Monty Python there. Still - sucks to be a successful commoner. She was burnt during peace talks! (edited) 4y

Graywacke To everyone who commented on Jane appearing to signal a second author - the difference in style in scene 3 was striking. I thought the end of this play, after the “highlight” of Talbot‘s death, is mostly a display of the Bard‘s fast paced wit. Suffolk working on Margaret was constantly clever and even stage-creative, and there were other moments of lightening magic. Then there is this heavy wordy interlude. (But - I think it does work.) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke With the exception of the Suffolk-Margaret section I felt like this Act was sort of let‘s get it over with and move on. I know scholars disagree on whether they were written chronologically or not, but to me the meat of this section was done and there wasn‘t enough time to get into the next bit, so let‘s throw in some more anti-French propaganda and call it done. The Suffolk-Margaret scene was a gem, full of repartee. 4y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Lcsmcat @Graywacke apparently that concern for the price of war was not passed down from father to son, sadly. 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke yeah, there was something a bit Month Python about it. Her execution was revenge, plain and simple. The fact that the French didn‘t even lift a finger to try to help her. 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke I don‘t see anything glaringly obvious to say Shakes didn‘t write all of this, honestly. (edited) 4y

GingerAntics @Lcsmcat I agree. Either Shakes was just linking this with the next one that already existed, or he wanted to be done with this one to get on to writing the next one. It doesn‘t really “end” per say, but I don‘t think it was really meant to. 4y

merelybookish Question about scheduling. Do people want to forge on or take a break between part I and 2? (I'll admit I have some catch up to do!) 4y

LitStephanie I enjoyed this play, with all its action and (mostly) fast paced dialogue. The scene with Suffolk and Margaret is funny with all their asides. Joan's attempts to thwart her execution are also funny: "But I'm a virgin endowed by god!" "But I am pregnant!" "Oh, you don't have sympathy for Charles's baby? Then it's Alencon's!" "Still no? OK, it's Reignier's!" 4y

LitStephanie There is naturally a lot of anti-French sentiment; after all, the English want to believe the wars were the other side's fault, but I do think it's interesting that Joan is burned at the stake for witchcraft without even a pretense of a trial. Shakespeare shows it as pretty much spiteful murder, albeit of a woman of low character. 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics @LitStephanie I think Holinshed gives 3 versions on Joan‘s capture, but they all seem to come down to betrayal by the French. (edited) 4y

Graywacke @merelybookish @GingerAntics - I think taking next week off is a good idea. Beyond that, any schedule is about equally good with me. 4y

Lcsmcat @LitStephanie In reality there was a pretense of a trial - not a fair one, mind you - but Will had to shorten the timeline. 4y

Lcsmcat I agree with @Graywacke that I‘d like to skip a week, but other than that I‘m flexible. 4y

LitStephanie @Lcsmcat yes there was a trial, and rather a more extensive one than most accused of witchcraft received (although not necessarily any more fair). That is why it is inreresting that WS has her just killed on the battlefield. I think he is making a point. 4y

LitStephanie @merelybookish I like the idea of taking a week off. 4y

GingerAntics @LitStephanie she got a trial in real lift...or at least the pretence of one. That is, after she was potentially raped by a few English soldiers. (edited) 4y

GingerAntics @merelybookish I could take a week off, too. 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics in the Signet commentary, Ulrici, writing in 1876, thought Shakespeare missed a chance by not capturing the poetry of the moment of Joan of Arc. That instead of poetry, he followed the English propaganda. 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke I get why it was safer for him to go with the propaganda, but I totally agree with this. He missed a really great opportunity, but then he had no way of knowing that Joan‘s reputation would favour Joan and not the men. 4y

TheBookHippie @Graywacke I so agree with that ! He missed it! Argh. Often happens I‘m sure. 4y

TheBookHippie @LitStephanie I agree with you. He‘s making a point. 4y

TheBookHippie We can carry on whenever ... week off for everyone to catch up catch a breath refocus whatever is fine by me. I plan to reread some of it. 4y

mollyrotondo I loved this last act precisely for what @Riveted_Reader_Melissa said. We had all this animosity between the French and English and the War of the Roses brewing and then a great leader in Talbot is lost and everyone says ehh we‘ve had enough of that, let‘s just call the whole thing off. It‘s like children who get bored with a game. And our young King gets distracted by the idea of a beautiful woman (he‘s never met her) and everyone moves on. 4y

mollyrotondo But there is still an enemy lurking in the shadows right under Henry‘s nose. The last line by Suffolk is so brilliantly ominous and makes me so excited to continue. But a week off @merelybookish sounds good. 4y

mollyrotondo @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @merelybookish @Graywacke @GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @LitStephanie @Lcsmcat Does anyone know of a good book about Joan of Arc? 4y

Graywacke @mollyrotondo not me, but I would like to know too. 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo That‘s how I felt reading it....battle battle battle, no quarter given....a pretty lady who might be my queen, well, enough of that, let‘s meet her, war over. Talbot smalbot, Joan who? 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo No, but if you find one let me know. 4y

TheBookHippie @mollyrotondo I read everybook out of our library on her 🤣 The trial of Jeanne d'Arc
Book by Joan of Arc archives and this one plus Joan of Arc : A Life Transfigured
by Kathryn Harrison
And

Saint Joan

TheBookHippie @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo I would definitely read any on her if you all find one 4y

Graywacke “Women‘s tongues are instruments of aggression or self-defense; men‘s are the tools of authority. In either case speech is an expression of authority; but male speech represents legitimate authority, while female speech attempts to usurp authority or rebel against it.”
A quote in the Signet commentary from Linda Woodbridge, Women and the English Renaissance: Literature and the Nature of Womenkind, 1540-1620 (1984) 4y

Lcsmcat @mollyrotondo @Riveted_Reader_Melissa Yes, let us know if you do. I‘ve read about her in French texts and the Shaw play, but that‘s it. 4y

TheBookHippie @Graywacke I wrote that book down !!! I need more reading time 🤣 4y

mollyrotondo @TheBookHippie thank you! I will take a look at these. And yes @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Lcsmcat and anyone who might interested in reading any that @TheBookHippie suggested or any others on Joan let us know and maybe we can read one together! 4y

GingerAntics @mollyrotondo @Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @TheBookHippie I read the retrial of Joan of Arc for a class a while back. I keep wanting to get a new copy so I can go back and take my time with it.

The Retrial of Joan of Arc: The Evidence for Her Vindication

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics same. I want to reread it. 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie you‘ve read that one? I don‘t remember anything about it, like the vast majority of what I read in grad school. Reading so much per week does not leave any opportunity for anything to stick, I swear. 4y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics when my daughter was in college in her college library I always wanted to read it at my leisure 🤣 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie you‘ve read The Trial of Joan of Arc: The evidence for Her Vindication? I don‘t remember anything about it, like the vast majority of what I read in grad school. Reading so much per week does not leave any opportunity for anything to stick, I swear. 4y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics Catholic liberal arts college they had the best books ! 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie there is certainly solid evidence for spending more time with a text. A third of a week is just not enough. 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie they do have really good history books in those types of libraries. There is certainly something to be said for the diligence of the Catholic Church when it comes to the liberal arts. 4y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics stealing your child‘s books to read is frowned upon jeezch she had the coolest class on women saints I tried to read it all as she did 🤣🤣🤣 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie why? If she was done with them you didn‘t have to rush to give them back. 🤷🏼‍♀️ 4y

mollyrotondo @GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke @Lcsmcat @LitStephanie I‘d definitely check out the tagged book that was mentioned above! If everyone wants to read it together at some point let me know!

The Retrial of Joan of Arc: The Evidence for Her Vindication

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics she‘s a 4.0 plus student and so particular about books..... she‘s much calmer now ha, motherhood. I learned a ton I did keep every art book she had to buy they are so cool. Catherine of Siena was really interesting too. We should have keep all those books ack money 🤯 4y

Lcsmcat @mollyrotondo If it‘s later in the year I‘d be interested. I‘m a bit overcommitted right now. 4y

TheBookHippie @Lcsmcat I‘m for summer 🤣🤣 4y

Lcsmcat @TheBookHippie 👍🏻 4y

mollyrotondo @Lcsmcat @TheBookHippie 😂 Definitely understand! Maybe after we finish all of Henry VI? We can revisit? 4y

TheBookHippie @mollyrotondo yes!!! 4y

GingerAntics @mollyrotondo I‘m in! Summer sounds good to me, too. (edited) 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie yeah, your books become a source of money once you‘re done with classes. I always found I got more money from HPB than the school bookstore, especially since I ordered from Amazon because their prices were cheaper to begin with. 4y

mollyrotondo @TheBookHippie you got it 👍 4y

mollyrotondo @GingerAntics Excellent! 4y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics she has a list I should look for them used 🤣 I may need to build an annex on the house .... 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie 🤣😂🤣 the library wing? 4y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics yes— if only !!! 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie being in a tornado zone, I always feel like the library should be in the basement. 😂 Put the library behind some reinforced walls, hang some battery powered lanterns from the ceiling, put in some comfy chase lounges, and next time there is a tornado or massive storm, you‘ve got some entertainment and somewhere to sleep if need be. Add a little hatch for family heirlooms and keepsakes and BAM!!! Your best bet in tornado alley. 4y

LitStephanie @Graywacke that quote makes me a little angry, LOL, somehow I lost the thread and am not sure how it relates? 4y

LitStephanie @GingerAntics yes exactly on how the best stuff is read in grad school but you have to read, interpret, write brilliant paper, repeat so quickly it doesn't stick! One of the reasons I joined Litsy was that I miss good university lit discussions. 4y

GingerAntics @LitStephanie I remember having such wonderful conversations, at least in some seminars, but I don‘t remember any of them. I know I read some really good books, but I don‘t remember any of them. You‘re right. You have no real time to sit with a text and really take it in. You‘re still expected to write a brilliant paper and move right on. I literally read 30-45 books in a week and a half for final papers. There is no way I remember ANY of that. 4y

batsy @Graywacke The Joan bit being a bit like a Monty Python sketch made me laugh! So true. I thought the exchange between Suffolk and Margaret was also the highlight and Suffolk gets to have the last word in the first part, which was a clever move by Shakespeare in a "read the sequel, my next play" kind of way. Though I'm not sure if that theory fits, since it probably wasn't chronologically written. 4y

batsy @mollyrotondo I haven't read any yet, but I do have this one

Joan of Arc: A History

batsy @merelybookish I don't mind a tiny little break, as well :) 4y

batsy @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @mollyrotondo That's very true! War is like a playground for the bored and powerful, almost... 4y

GingerAntics @batsy even if he didn‘t write them in order, he still could have written this one to lead into the next, which means you‘re theory is still valid. I think there is something to this play being ended to promote the next play. It may have been written after, but it still would have been played before. 4y

Graywacke @LitStephanie i meant to actually tie the Linda Woodbridge quote in but, kind of got distracted and when i came back it was buried by all the Joan of Arc follow up discussion. 🙂 Anyway it‘s really apropos to this play and everything else Shakespeare wrote, and, well, you know...maybe widely applicable. ( @TheBookHippie - yes, another book to read.) 4y

Graywacke @batsy kind of teaser for or link in to part 2. It‘s starting to make more sense to me how this play could have been written after part 2. 4y

Liz_M @Litsy Bug report for the website? I can see this post in the app (even though the user is private) because I was tagged. On the website (windows 10 firefox) I only see a blank screen. 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @merelybookish @Graywacke @GingerAntics @batsy @TheBookHippie @LitStephanie @Lcsmcat I just came across this Joan book, by Mark Twain! I didn‘t know that he wrote a book about her, and now I‘m really curious about it. He apparently did tons of research, reading accounts by both sides and considered it his best work.

Joan of Arc

(edited) 4y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I didn‘t know he wrote one about her, either. 4y

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GingerAntics

Henry VI, Part 1 (Revised) | William Shakespeare

There seem to be some issues in the English court and Talbot may have gotten more than he bargained for. This was an action packed act. How is everyone else feeling about it?
#Shakespeare #HenryVIpart1 #shakespearereadalong

merelybookish, Graywacke

Lcsmcat I found the interplay between Talbot and his son both touching and frustrating. He obviously raised his son to be a warrior, but then was heartbroken that he couldn‘t convince him to do what he had been carefully trained no to do - run away to save his life. Which is what Talbot punishes Falstoff for a few scenes earlier. There‘s a Greek tragedy inevitability about it all. 4y

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Riveted_Reader_Melissa I found myself wishing we‘d had a Talbot play, instead of Henry at its center. Such an interesting character, but still played like a minor one in the play as a whole. I felt like I needed a Tragedy of Talbot play. Honestly his plot line & Joan‘s are the most interesting and could have been their own plays from separate sides of the same conflict and (for me) have been so much more interesting. 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa So a set of he said/she said Tragedy of Talbot & Tragedy of Joan plays. 4y

batsy I'm maybe in the minority, but while I did feel sorry for Talbot losing his son I was also intensely annoyed with the warrior rhetoric, & it's probably because the whole play is about that, so I've just had enough 🙃 Joan absolutely gets the short end of the stick here in being portrayed as a villain, but she's still pretty entertaining every time she shows up. 4y

Lcsmcat @Riveted_Reader_Melissa Yes, Talbot could support a play of his own! I watched a BBC production with Talbot played by Trevor Peacock where he stole the show. 4y

Lcsmcat @batsy It is a very war-centric play! Which I guess is inevitable given the time period, but watching the BBC version (see above) there was an awful lot of shouting and running around with swords raised. 😀 4y

Graywacke I see this as Henry VI‘s failure. He still thinks he can heal the 🌹s by fiat, and it has cost him the war and his best general. He‘s a failed king already. (In reality all the losing happened during regent rule, while this H was still a pup). 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat 😂 😂 4y

Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Lcsmcat I‘ve had enough Talbot and I thought scenes 5 & 6 begged to be combined. But there were some lyrical lines between dad and son (living and deceased). 4y

Graywacke @batsy Joan - young Talbot wouldn‘t even fight her! That was low. 4y

TheBookHippie @batsy Well Joan would have to be the villain 🤦🏽‍♀️😅 the warrior rhetoric reminded me of something but I could my quite place it.... 4y

TheBookHippie @Graywacke I scribbled quite a few lines down from this play so far!! 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke @batsy This is more next week‘s Act, but Joan‘s portrayal gets flattened into a caricature as the play goes on. Much more the English version of her than the French. 4y

batsy @TheBookHippie Yeah I know, my point is that in having to be a villain, she gets the worst of it in this Act. Shakespeare has become less interested in making her an intriguing character. 4y

batsy @Lcsmcat @Graywacke Yes, I've finished as well and she truly does become a caricature! 4y

batsy @Graywacke I was offended! 😆 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat well then. Maybe he‘ll inspire some of us to look more into the real Joan... or Joan mythology at least. 4y

TheBookHippie @batsy Powerful women threaten men 😅 I meant, no shocker there. They must turn a different narrative to feel comfortable ... I imagine this was especially true in this time period 😩 fearless she always seemed to me. Can‘t imagine that went well for men with fear. Especially in battle 4y

TheBookHippie @Lcsmcat changing narrative to suit ego? 4y

Graywacke @batsy right. Come on, John! 😠 4y

Lcsmcat @TheBookHippie The Folger edition I‘m reading from says that the change in portrayal has been used to support the idea that someone else helped him write this play. Someone not as good at writing complex characters. 4y

batsy @TheBookHippie Yes, exactly! The intersection of nationalism and misogyny seemed really potent in this play, especially in the portrayal of Joan. And it was likely to appease the audience. @Lcsmcat The Pelican intro also briefly considers the idea that it wasn't all Shakespeare... 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @batsy @TheBookHippie Signet wants nothing to do with other authors ( @batsy Pelican? Traitor! 🙂) (edited) 4y

Graywacke Lawrence V Ryan for Signet (2 posts) : “It would be rash to assert categorically that Henry VI as printed in the Folio of 1623 is entirely by Shakespeare, or that no version involving extensive collaboration with others ever did exist. ... 👇👇 (edited) 4y

Graywacke ... But an approach to the play through the relationship between theme and dramatic design, rather than through its stylistic echoes of various contemporary writers, does considerably strengthen the argument that Shakespeare played the major, if not an exclusive,role in its composition.” 4y

LitStephanie Which act are we on? 4y

Graywacke @LitStephanie Act IV 4y

Graywacke Act I - Jan 9
Act II - Jan 16
Act III - Jan 23
Act IV - Jan 30
Act V - Feb 7 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I thought it interesting that Folger didn‘t take a stand on the authorship - they said that people had used Joan‘s portrayal as evidence. 4y

LitStephanie Thanks, @Graywacke. In 4.2.44, when Talbot says, "O, negligent and heedless discipline!" is he blaming himself or is he blaming the King and counsel for not providing enough resources, as in 1.1 when the messenger says they lost a bunch of cities because of want of men and money? 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat Ryan doesn‘t mention Joan in this context. Interesting. 4y

Graywacke @LitStephanie i was thinking he was blaming himself for rushing in carelessly and getting surrounded. (Also I kinda agreed with Somerset later when he blamed Talbot and York). 4y

mollyrotondo @TheBookHippie @batsy @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I felt like Joan was written as a very interesting figure in the beginning of the play but by the end of Act IV she seems overly villainous and not at all a messenger of Mother Mary. Really disappointing. @Lcsmcat I‘ve been watching the BBC version after each act I read and Joan is so very much a caricature of the woman. Love BBC but this version makes look even worse than the image I get while reading 4y

mollyrotondo @Graywacke I also thought a few of Talbot‘s and John‘s scenes could have been combined. The dialogue was very repetitive between them. And I thought maybe breaking up the scenes of them battling the French in between scenes with Henry and Somerset and York might have worked better. I don‘t know but the flow didn‘t work for me. 4y

LitStephanie I like the parts with Joan. She is so saucy and impudent! Also, guess Henry should have taken the divisions in his counsel a little more seriously--instead of crying and whining about how their bickering wounded his sensibilities, he should have taken stern action. Poor Henry is really not cut out for the job. 4y

LitStephanie @mollyrotondo the dialogue with Talbot and his son was a little long! I actually like all the battle scenes in this play in a good live performance. 4y

mollyrotondo @LitStephanie oh okay great! I didn‘t watch this act yet in the BBC performance so maybe I will like it better while watching. 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie it‘s amazing how things really haven‘t changed in 400 years (and really, way longer than that). At least the French have a more positive view of Joan, now at least. 4y

GingerAntics @Lcsmcat @TheBookHippie @batsy @Graywacke I am endlessly intrigued by the notion that some plays may have been collaborations. It‘s interesting that no where is a record of who he collaborated with, if it‘s true. There is one play I know of where scholars believe it was specifically with Thomas Kyd. They also through around Kyd‘s name and Ben Johnson‘s name for these things. I‘d love to see this “evidence” people mention at times. 4y

GingerAntics @Lcsmcat the way Joan is portrayed is used as evidence that there was a second author? That‘s quite interesting. I‘m going to have to look into that. 4y

GingerAntics @batsy I love Joan in this play. She‘s a big reason I like this play so much, but this is clearly English propaganda against her. (Trying so hard not to let slip the really obvious propaganda in act V until next week.) 4y

GingerAntics @Lcsmcat @Graywacke @batsy have you guys all finished? I swear, I‘m trying so hard to keep act V (and the obvious propaganda against Joan) under wraps until next week. This is 100% the English side of the story as it were. 4y

Lcsmcat @GingerAntics Yes, I finished but am trying not to post spoilers. It‘s the difference in Joan of Act 4 and Joan of Act 5 that “some people” use as evidence. We can discuss more next week. 😀 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics you won‘t spoil anything for me, but I haven‘t finished yet. 4y

GingerAntics @Lcsmcat same. The difference is rather striking. 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke I‘m trying to use the vaguest terms possible. 4y

LitStephanie @GingerAntics I still sometimes am surprised at irrational anti-French sentiment in English literature. The French and the English hated each other so much and were at war all the damn time for hundreds of years, so I guess there was probably a lot of propaganda on both sides. I love how the King and other leaders keep calling French rebels traitirs because they want their country back. 4y

GingerAntics @LitStephanie yeah, the whole politics behind it is so complacent. Through marriage, an English king gained the thrown of part of France and that just started a hot mess that in some ways still continues today. 4y

TheBookHippie @Graywacke well that‘s just rude 🤣🤣🤣my signet addiction is all you @batsy .... also I agree they were appeasing the audience ! 4y

TheBookHippie @Lcsmcat this makes sense then. 4y

batsy @Graywacke In my defence, your honour, I was waiting for the Signet edition to arrive from Book Depository & only the Pelican was available locally 😂 4y

batsy @GingerAntics Yes, I've finished and the point of collaborative authorship is interesting to me, as well. Though I don't think I buy it. But then, maybe? Like I still feel that a troll entered the room and finished off tha bizarre scene between the Countess of Auvergne and Talbot in Act II 😂 4y

Graywacke @batsy like @TheBookHippie says, i was a little rude there. Apologies. Meant it in good fun. 4y

Graywacke You all have me crazy curious about Act v now. Might not be able to hold off till this coming Sunday. 4y

GingerAntics @batsy it does seem like certain parts are almost called in. He knew what he wanted to do for most of the play, but then occasionally he knew it needed something more to end a scene or something and either he just put whatever in there or he let a buddy fill in the blanks. 4y

GingerAntics @batsy @Graywacke @TheBookHippie what is this about the pelican edition? This whole thing has become amusing. Are the pelican editions weird or something? 😂 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke 😏 4y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics we switched to signet because of @batsy I was reading The Pelicans 🤣🤣🤣😅 4y

TheBookHippie @Graywacke I was joking 🤣😬🥺how rude of her to leave us 🤣🤣😅😝 (edited) 4y

TheBookHippie @batsy 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 4y

TheBookHippie I actually do think I learn more from signet 🤷🏽‍♀️ 4y

batsy @Graywacke @TheBookHippie Oh no, not at all! Gave me a chuckle 😁 4y

batsy @TheBookHippie Oh... 🤣🤣 4y

batsy @GingerAntics It's just that I like the Signet editions a lot and have been trying to convert everyone 😆 Readable and great supplementary material. 4y

TheBookHippie @batsy 💕💕✌🏻 I have learned much more reading signet- ha. 4y

Graywacke @batsy I had forgotten how how sucky it can be for you to get books sometimes. Anyway, glad no offense taken. Signet is awesome. ( @TheBookHippie I completely agree!) Pelican will do in a pinch. 🙂 4y

Gezemice I personally use Arden... 4y

GingerAntics @Gezemice don‘t worry. I‘m an RSC girl. Signet is just a small subgroup. 🤣 4y

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GingerAntics

Henry VI, Part 1 (Revised) | William Shakespeare

pick

Review of Part 1

This is actually a rather enthralling piece of English propaganda against Joan of Arc and the French. This certainly demonstrates the animosity of the English toward the French that still exists (though mainly in sport now).
#Shakespeare #HenryVIpart1 #shakespearereadalong

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GingerAntics

Henry VI, Part 1 (Revised) | William Shakespeare

So Burgundy comes back to fight for France and Talbot insults Joan (not the smartest move ever). Thoughts? Concerns for Talbot‘s health? Anyone else enjoying having Joan around again? I‘m beginning to wonder when the English get rid of her.
#Shakespeare #HenryVIpart1 #shakespearereadalong

merelybookish, Graywacke

batsy I was glad to see Joan again. Some of the lines directed at her are fun, aren't they. "Foul fiend of France, and hag of all despite"—would like that on a t-shirt. I'm finding Talbot's reputation to be a bit eye-rolly at this point. And it was interesting that young King Henry seems to have more sense than the adults. 4y

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Cuilin I feel bad for the people of Rouen. They must have an identity crisis. They don‘t know if their French or English from one minute to the next. Henry VI comes across as gentle and not very war like. I get the feeling we‘ll like him but his gentleness may not be what they need to keep France. 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @batsy I was thinking, Joan can‘t win...if she succeeds she‘s a miracle prophetess (praise goes to god), if she losses a liar (even if it‘s during the night when she‘s asleep and the guards fail), and if she conquers you a witch, foul fiend, and hag. Women, of course blamed for everything and even in success, she‘s either a witch or a hand from above....seems not to have changed much. 😂 4y

mollyrotondo @Riveted_Reader_Melissa correct! She just simply cannot be a good warrior. Even the praise and devotion from the French is so disturbing to read in this play because we know the French turn on her. So awful. And a great way Shakespeare shows the drastic turn from praise to scorn. 4y

mollyrotondo I love how Shakespeare shows us all the infighting going on in Henry‘s court. All the false agreements or the quarrels between two Englishmen after everyone has left all buddy buddy. He dramatizes the weaknesses in the English court. 4y

Lcsmcat @Cuilin I feel for the citizens too. What‘s in it for them? 4y

TheBookHippie @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I so agree Joan was doomed no matter what. The labels allllll STILL accurate today. STILL. Women with any perceived power are feared by most men to this day ...as we see played out all over the world. 4y

TheBookHippie @batsy one hag T-shirt for me please. I too am loving all of it. 4y

TheBookHippie @mollyrotondo infighting seems to be the downfall of most countries I like how it is written here. 4y

Cuilin @batsy @GingerAntics There‘s no path to success for Joan and women in general. The age old story of women can only be virginal = good, whores= bad or witches = also bad. If women pick good they may not step out of line ever or they‘ll fall into one of the other categories. I think Joan falls into all of these depending on who is judging her. Doomed to failure 😞 4y

TheBookHippie @Cuilin I‘m thinking the same he may be too weak. Anytime France has a weaker leader it seems to not go well 😬 4y

TheBookHippie @Cuilin Agree about women... 4y

TheBookHippie I‘m liking Joan and the story I‘ve not read a ton of history of this time and am looking up so much. Interesting to see Shakespeare‘s take and then wonder what he is saying. 4y

batsy @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Cuilin Yes, absolutely. She can't do anything right & even when she's being praised, she's sexualised. I do kind of love that her retorts to the men are steady, like she can't be bothered with the petty stuff, and only has one job to do (which I guess is how she sees her role). 4y

batsy @TheBookHippie 😆🙌🏽 #TeamHag 4y

GingerAntics @batsy I‘ve noticed that, too. With age comes wisdom does not seem to apply to this play. 4y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @batsy sadly, it doesn‘t seem much has changed in the 400 some odd years since this was written. 4y

GingerAntics @mollyrotondo the French court doesn‘t look much better, honestly. 4y

GingerAntics @Cuilin especially when you consider she was given virginity tests which were even weirder than most people imagine. 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie remember, this is basically Elizabethan propaganda. He‘s attempting to show how wonderful and brilliant the English are, but right now it seems like the only one falling into that category right now is HVI. 4y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics Ha! You‘re right. 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I think because we all know the real story, Joan of Arc comes off that way as well, but Shakespeare certainly wouldn‘t be telling that story to Elizabeth I. 4y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics ah NO. Nope. It is fascinating to me I think reading the histories make us see today in different light as well. Although the comedies and tragedies seem to as well. Such brilliance. 4y

Graywacke Joan - doomed every way. Does she realize? Poor hag of despite. 4y

Graywacke Spent time before reading this act trying to figure out who all these English players are, and it might have paid off. I was happy to catch how the bard quietly undermines H-vi‘s character. He has no idea of the sickness in the English nobility. He really thinks things are ok because he had two goofs shake hands. They‘re not event the true problem goofs... And he sets York up! Oh, what‘s coming... 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke there does seem to be a bit of cluelessness on the thrown. Several generations later, the naivety of Richard II is still alive and well in this distant nephew Henry VI. 4y

Lcsmcat @batsy You make the t-shirt and I‘ll wear it. Right next to my “nevertheless she persisted” one. 😀 There does seem to be a bit too much behavior in this play mirrored in today‘s headlines. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat i have that t-shirt ☺️ 4y

GingerAntics @Lcsmcat I want that t-shirt! 4y

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GingerAntics

Henry VI, Part 1 (Revised) | William Shakespeare

Sorry for being so late with this post.
Less Joan of Arc and more of the men arguing in this act. Thoughts?
#Shakespeare #HenryVIpart1 #shakespearereadalong

merelybookish, Graywacke

Graywacke So that‘s how the War of 🌹s started. 🙂 Seemed - kind of petty in this version. I found this an entertaining and easy to follow act (once I figured out who was who) 4y

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TheBookHippie SO reading notes and text this struck me. 'Ay, sharp and piercing, to maintain his truth, Whiles thy consuming canker eats his falsehood.“ A summary of part of the act: 'political infighting, in which the nobles aspire to more than the well-being of their nation and seek personal power above all. We keep reading accurate to our times plays!
“Thanks, gentlemen.
Come, let us four to dinner.
I dare say This quarrel will drink blood another day.“ 4y

TheBookHippie @Graywacke And so it begins! 4y

Graywacke @TheBookHippie yes, apt for today. (Wednesday can‘t come soon enough) 4y

Lcsmcat This act sent me down an internet rabbit hole on the War of the Roses. And @Graywacke a footnote in my edition, at the start of the act, says “we don‘t know what they were arguing about”:😳 4y

TheBookHippie @Graywacke I hear that! 4y

TheBookHippie @Lcsmcat I kept thinking of the movie with Michael Douglas I think ? 😆 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat scene 4 or scene 1? 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Scene 4, but the note is placed at the beginning of the act. 4y

Lcsmcat @TheBookHippie I am not the one to ask names of actors. I delegate that task to my husband. 😀 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat 🙂 I made the assumption they were arguing who was second in line... now I‘m realizing that might not even make sense... 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat seems it was just a mysterious legal dispute... 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Although, since Henry VI was 9 months old when he became king, and an only child, I imagine the squabbling all had succession in the background somewhere. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat yes, agree. (That‘s what I assumed. I just assumed ...maybe above and beyond what the text suggested. 😁) 4y

Graywacke @TheBookHippie I never saw that movie - although I distinctly remember the trailers. 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke this is just one part of the war of the roses. It was fought on and off for ages. It‘s why it‘s actually called the wars of the roses. Every history play we‘ve read has been about the beginning of the war of the roses. The line of succession between all of these kings (RII-HVI has actually been only 45 years 1377-1422). This entire thing has been “the beginning” of the wars of the roses. 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke RII banishing his cousin and that cousin never forgiving him for it basically started the family feud that became and set the president for the wars of the roses. This is really just a bunch of extended family drama. 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie a very similar quarrel is drinking blood right now, sadly. 4y

GingerAntics @Lcsmcat everything is about succession and power. That‘s basically the theme of the entire wars of the roses period. 4y

mollyrotondo So while I was reading this week I was trying to keep in mind what someone said last week about this playing being performed for Queen Elizabeth who falls on the York side. The Wars of the Roses was about the Yorks and the Lancasters and who really holds the right to the throne. So Shakespeare would have favored the York‘s in order to please Elizabeth. So fascinating. It also made me read some of the British dialogue as humorously pompous ⬇️ 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics well, yes, but there weren‘t, you know, literally 🌹s 🙂 4y

mollyrotondo When Talbot comes in to the Countess‘s home and acts like he‘s so tough and prideful and says he isn‘t all Talbot because his army is part of who he is 😂 I just kept reading a lot of the dialogue as Shakespeare really stroking the British audience‘s ego. It seems so striking in this play for some reason 4y

Graywacke @mollyrotondo extra macho 😆 (i was embarrassed for him for Talbot that line.) 4y

mollyrotondo @Graywacke 😂 yeah it was too much. When we read Antony & Cleopatra and we read Julius Caesar I felt like I was reading serious accounts of history. But this reads as a comically overdramatic telling 😂 still enjoying it for sure though 4y

Cuilin @mollyrotondo yes, I fell down a rabbit hole this week concerning this. It was considered propaganda. If the queen approved of these history plays which looked favorably on her family and the English as heroes she would more likely support the theater or a least let the writers and actors get on with it without fear of her reproach. 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke sadly, no. In fact, they didn‘t even call the wars that... but this play is certainly looking at the English side of this particular was through rose colored glasses. 😏 (sorry, had to be done.) 🤣😂🤣 4y

GingerAntics @Cuilin or death! 4y

Cuilin @GingerAntics yeah no joke! Though I have to say whatever the motivation in the writing and performing, and there were many, I quite like these history plays. 4y

TheBookHippie @Cuilin I like these history plays too. 4y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics Sadly it could play out easily 😩 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie right? (Sigh) 4y

batsy @Graywacke Definitely petty! 4y

batsy I missed Joan in this Act. And I thought the scene between Countess of Auvergne and Talbot utterly bizarre. Shakespeare going all out in making her seem utterly subservient to Talbot's manly English masculinity in the space of a few lines 🙄 I went down the rabbit hole re: the War of the Roses, too. I never can keep track of anyone there *insert gif of confused woman trying to work out a math formula* 😂 4y

GingerAntics @batsy the easy answer is HenRichWard (Henry, Richard, or Edward) did it. You‘re always right with that. The answer is always HenRichWard, even with the occasional John thrown into the mix. (edited) 4y

batsy @GingerAntics 😂 4y

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GingerAntics

Henry VI, Part 1 (Revised) | William Shakespeare

The Maid of Orléans makes a cameo appearance in this act. The English hate her, but the French see her as their ringer. We all know how that‘s going to end. How do you feel about Joan being part of this play?
There is a great debate over whether Shakespeare wrote this play, or if he just contributed a few acts to it. Is this act one of Shakespeare‘s or someone else‘s?
#Shakespeare #HenryVIpart1 #shakespearereadalong

merelybookish, Graywacke

TheBookHippie I‘ve always been in awe of Joan !! I‘d like to have coffee with her and talk 🤣 hard pressed to say if this is or isn‘t Shakespeare but I do like Joan being in it. It feels different but 🤷🏽‍♀️ (edited) 4y

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TheBookHippie Also now wanting Joan books from library 🤣 4y

Lcsmcat Having studied French since I was 12 or 13, I‘m steeped in Joan of Arc from the French perspective, so it was fascinating to see her from an English perspective. 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I feel like she was be a cool historical figure to talk to. 4y

GingerAntics @Lcsmcat well, they tortured her to death by burning her at the steak, so that pretty much sums it up. Some of the English solders may have raped her before doing it, too. 4y

Graywacke I think the romantic view of Joan of Arc post-dates Shakespeare, anyway I think he has a very different view than most of us have. I don‘t think he likes her. I‘m intrigued. As for the author, I just don‘t see how this is different from Shakespeare‘s style. Quick action, compressed lines, characterization consistent with Hv or King Lear. I see no reason to question the authorship. 4y

Graywacke Overall i find act I feels like it presses the limits of how much plot to include. Every scene is a new critical plot development. Also it‘s so self-serious. I want more humor. 🙂 4y

Cuilin I was raised Catholic so (St) Joan was in the category of Martyrs, I always found her fascinating. And as someone raised in Ireland our own history lead us to sympathize with anyone fighting for freedom against the British. 4y

Cuilin @Graywacke Not sure the date of the play but if performed for Queen Elizabeth then it may have behooved Shakespeare to not let the audience sympathize with a Catholic martyr? 4y

LitStephanie I know of no credible evidence WS had a collaborator on this. Certainly his friends putting together the First Folio didn't think so. He was, like everyone else, using historical chronicles as his sources. I like all the action in this act! I am skeptical of Joan of Arc, but the treatment of her character in this is terrible and obviously French taunting. 4y

LitStephanie @GingerAntics glad you brought up Joan because though her part isn't large, it's important. Really reflects how, at that time, women as fighters were seen as unnatural. I think it's interesting she is considered unnatural via witchcraft vs. manly, which will be contrasted later with how he portrays Margaret. 4y

LitStephanie @Cuilin oh yeah, LOL. There were Catholic plots to murder Queen Elizabeth right up to her death, so Catholic sympathizing was a big no no! 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke It was very long for a first Act. And there was no “chorus” or clown philosophizing so much as lots of main character action. 4y

TheBookHippie @Graywacke I think that is what it is. I don't think he liked her and we all were most likely taught a differing view. It's not that he didn't write it, it is history has made us look at it differently. 4y

Mtroiano Good point! @Cuilin 4y

Graywacke @Cuilin definitely during Queen Elizabeth I. It‘s usually dated as something like ~1590-1592. I‘m thinking he does show her as an admirable warrior, so not all bad. But I‘m not left with a good feeling about her. Not just me, right? (Well, see also @LitStephanie ) Hard to explain though. (edited) 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat yes, no clowns! Serious flaw. And this Fallstaff is no fun whatsoever. 4y

Graywacke @TheBookHippie yes, i have same impression. 4y

mollyrotondo @Graywacke I also thought that he crammed a lot of plot and character profiles into this first Act. I did not expect to meet Joan so soon and to learn about so many of young Henry‘s crew‘s personal motives right off the bat. And a British officer is taken prisoner and then released all in the same Act lol. There was a lot and yet we still have four more Acts to go lol 4y

batsy I found the Joan bits exciting, but I too get the sense that Shakes didn't like her & along with the general "the French are duplicitous" undercurrent running through the play, the viciousness directed toward Joan by the English men (sorceress or harlot or BOTH), it could get unpleasant. Strangely enough although this play seems to be criticised for its weak style, I found the first Act absorbing & absurd (nationalism ... opiate of the masses ?) 4y

batsy @TheBookHippie I feel dangerously close to wanting to read *all* of the Joan books after Act 1 😅 4y

TheBookHippie @batsy SAME 🤣🤣👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 4y

Lcsmcat @batsy Yeah, I don‘t think the English liked her. Just a hunch. 😀 4y

GingerAntics @LitStephanie I can go back and pull the evidence the RSC has for either separate authorship or collaboration for this play. It seems his friends did have questions about this one. I‘ll find the quotes and post them. 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke yes, this was certainly a very busy act. When I got done with it I took a deep breath because it just felt like so much at once. 4y

GingerAntics @Lcsmcat @batsy well, she was trying to kick the English out of her country and they wanted to take it over, so she was certainly the enemy. Then you have all these men that died at the hands of an army with a female leader. I‘m sure much of the contemporary thoughts on her are saving face. “Certainly a woman couldn‘t hurt us without some kind of supernatural assistance.” 4y

GingerAntics @Lcsmcat @batsy Add in that the English believed they were doing “god‘s work” and the logical conclusion is that she‘s possessed, evil, or a witch. 4y

batsy @GingerAntics Yes, the combination of misogyny and religious nationalism makes me wonder how the portrayal of Joan will shift over the next few Acts. 4y

GingerAntics @batsy it will be interesting to see. Hopefully she‘s around for a while. 4y

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GingerAntics

Henry VI, Part 1 (Revised) | William Shakespeare

Welcome to our final Lancastrian king...for the next three plays. We‘ll be kicking off part 1 this Sunday (so Valentine‘s day is on the off week for those who celebrate).
Act I 10 Jan
Act II 17 Jan
Act III 24 Jan
Act IV 31 Jan
Act V 7 Feb
#Shakespeare #HenryVIpart1 #shakespearereadalong

merelybookish, Graywacke

mollyrotondo Yayyyy! Can‘t wait! 4y

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merelybookish We can do this! 💪 Also tagging @Cuilin 4y

TheBookHippie Yay!!! We can do this !! 4y

Cuilin @merelybookish thank you. 4y

Graywacke Better go get my edition out... @mollyrotondo @merelybookish @TheBookHippie That‘s the spiri....wait ... should i be worried about this one? 4y

GingerAntics @merelybookish added her to my list 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke it‘s going to be an adventure...do you usually worry agony adventures? There will be war of the roses excitement. 🤷🏼‍♀️ 4y

LitStephanie Looking forward to it! 4y

rabbitprincess All set! And I‘ve ordered Part 3 so that it gets here in plenty of time 🤓 4y

batsy Ooh! I thought I had a copy of Part 1 but I didn't so just made a mad dash to order it from a local bookstore 😂 Will also try to order the Signet edition for Parts 2 and 3 from Book Depository and I'm hoping it takes less than 2 months to get here! 4y

GingerAntics @batsy WHAAAAAAAAA?! That‘s a long time. Fingers crossed you get them before you need them. Do you have access to project Gutenberg or something? I know there are generally free versions out there somewhere. They‘re not the best, but they‘re at least something. 🤷🏼‍♀️ 4y

batsy @GingerAntics Oh yes, thanks, can access the free versions! But I just really need the physical copies when it comes to Shakespeare. Something to do with writing notes in the margins and underlining, maybe? 🤷🏽‍♀️😁 4y

GingerAntics @batsy totally agree. Even with a digital copy you can highlight and make notes in, it‘s just not the same. That‘s on my list of things I need to replace in my library. 4y

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GingerAntics

Henry VI, Part 1 (Revised) | William Shakespeare

Happy New Year, #shakespearereadalong!!! Our next THREE plays will be about this guy here, Henry VI. I will be leading part 1. I‘m sure at least some of us will have to order copies, so I‘m just giving everyone a heads up. Let me know if you have a copy or need to get one so I can take delivery times into consideration when making the schedule.
#shakespeare #HenryVIpart1

merelybookish, Graywacke

GingerAntics @readinginthedark @batsy @Lcsmcat @TheBookHippie @Sunraven @Trashcanman @IamIamIam @ladyneverwhere @erzascarletbookgasm @MoonWitch94 @catebutler @CoffeeNBooks @jewright @saresmoore @rabbitprincess @Balibee146 @IndoorDame @kathedron @Mtroiano @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @MrsMalaprop @Gezemice @readordierachel 4y

GingerAntics Also, let me know if anyone needs to be added or removed from the tags. 4y

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erzascarletbookgasm I want to take a break, but after you‘re all done with this guy, I‘ll like to join #ShakespeareReadAlong again. Thanks. 4y

GingerAntics @erzascarletbookgasm you‘ve got it! 4y

IndoorDame I‘d like to take a break for a while. I‘m feeling over committed this year. 4y

GingerAntics @IndoorDame totally understand 4y

Graywacke Have copy, ready anytime. Looking forward to these. 4y

Daisey I have a copy and am also ready whenever. 4y

Mtroiano I have a copy and I am eager to start participating in discussion again 4y

Lcsmcat I have a copy. 4y

rabbitprincess I have parts 1 and 2, would have to order 3 😊 4y

LitStephanie I have a copy. 😀 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa I‘m good whenever, I have one of those huge complete works of books and if I get tired of lugging it around I just download the free Project Gutenberg or Librovox versions. 4y

mollyrotondo I also have a copy and thought we were starting our discussion today so I already read Act I 😂 oops! 4y

TheBookHippie Mine comes Wednesday ! But I can start I have the BIG ONE with all the plays. (edited) 4y

readordierachel It's been a while since I participated, because life 😬 You can take me off the list for now. Thanks. 4y

GingerAntics @readordierachel okay 4y

GingerAntics @mollyrotondo oh, you‘re ahead of the game! Nice! It sounds like most people can start next week, so I think you‘re good! 4y

GingerAntics @rabbitprincess you‘ve definitely got time to order part 3. 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics do you have a start date? Just checking if I should start reading 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke I was just about to set the schedule. I think I‘m too late today to start this Sunday, so we‘ll start 1/17. 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics this Sunday works too. (save the valentines 💕 !! 🙂) 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke yeah, I had to make an executive decision if people wanted to discuss on that day. I seemed a better idea all around to make that the off week. (edited) 4y

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