Litsy

pick

My Antonia is one of the “best loved” American novels. I hate it, which is shorthand for saying that the book did not speak to me & I am jealous that it speaks to others. I decided to give her another read. I did this with Steinbeck last year and while I still hate The Grapes of Wrath, I happily found The Red Pony to be a marvel. I chose Cather‘s My Mortal Enemy. And it is a revelation. The characters & situation are drawn with care & pain.

CarolynM This and My Antonia are my favourite Cathers. 8mo

batsy I love this book, and if you're looking for another Cather to discover this one is close to my heart

The Song of the Lark

8mo

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Lcsmcat

Collected Stories | Willa Cather

#everyday #quotsyjun21 @TK-421

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batsy

Collected Stories | Willa Cather

pick

This collection has its high & not-so-high points, as complete story collections often do. Though reading it as part of the #catherbuddyread was fascinating, delving into it as we did after Cather's brilliant novels, in that it crystallises most of her prevalent themes: art vs commerce, freedom in spirit & mind, the sense of communion with nature & the universe that transcends day-to-day banalities, sensitive characters ill-adjusted to the world.

batsy If I wasn't blown away with this collection from start to finish, it's largely because I feel something about the novel form allows Cather the freedom for her ideas & sensibilities, & the short story form can sometimes render it rudimentary or simplistic. There were elements of conservatism or sentimentalism that in the novels become fully fleshed out & take flight. But all in all, what a splendid body of work Cather has produced. 3y

batsy Many thanks to @Graywacke and @Lcsmcat for organising and to fellow buddy readers for the always fruitful discussions! 3y

lazydaizee Nice book cover. 3y

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Lcsmcat Excellent summation! I don‘t believe I‘ve read an author‘s complete oeuvre in order before, and it was fascinating to watch Cather develop her voice, and to experience that with this amazing group gave me so many more insights! 3y

Graywacke @batsy enjoyed your thoughtful review and loved having you as part of our discussions. 3y

batsy @nuttybooklady It really is, though I had to make do with the ebook :) 3y

batsy @Lcsmcat @Graywacke Thank you. I don't think I have either; Cather might be the first author whose complete works I've read! And it was lovely discovering her with all of you 🙂 3y

CarolynM Great review, as always. I agree not all of the stories were up to the standard of the novels, but I thought a few of them were excellent. 3y

batsy @CarolynM Thank you! I agree, there were definitely some gems in here & even the stories that I weren't fond of had some indefinable quality, being Cather 🙂 3y

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Graywacke

Collected Stories | Willa Cather

pick

We learned a great deal about WC these last 3 months with these 19 stories and an essay. She was a dynamic author who reveals here much more complexity than her novels indicate. Beginning in a Henry James‘s style, she quickly cultivated her own voice, tying to various experiences in her life and imagination. I liked her novels better, but I love what this collection reveals. So, 5 ⭐️s. Thank you so much to our wonderful #catherbuddyread

Lcsmcat

Lcsmcat It was an amazing journey with our beloved Willa, and I think it distilled and clarified some of her ongoing themes. Thanks to everyone who participated and shared unique perspectives. 4y

Suet624 What a lovely photo of her. 3y

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Lcsmcat

Collected Stories | Willa Cather

The papal palace at Avignon reminds me of the cliff dwellings. Hmm. If, like me, you were expecting the surviving fragments you can read them here: https://www.willacather.org/system/files/idxdocs/willa_cather_nr_fall2011_vol_55... There‘s also explication, so if you just want the fragments scroll down to p 3. My reaction to Kates‘ work wasn‘t as violent as Chris Wolak‘s. How about yours? #catherbuddyread

Lcsmcat @Graywacke @CarolynM @batsy @jewright @Louise @Sace @Tamra @Suet624 @arubabookwoman @Currey @catebutler @Catherine_Willoughby @crazeedi @mdm139 @Tanisha_A @emilyhaldi @rubyslippersreads @KathyWheeler of course let me know if you want off or on this list. 4y

Lcsmcat Having trouble posting comments, so apologies to anyone who got multiple tags. 4y

Lcsmcat A couple quotes I marked from the essay, if Litsy will behave and let me post them. 🙄 4y

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Lcsmcat “Against the materialism of the aftercomers alone, the second generation, that lesser breed after the pioneers, was she to remain adamant in lifelong hostility.” We noticed this feeling, but “hostility” seems a bit strong/harsh to me. Thoughts? 4y

Lcsmcat About Old Beauty Kates said “She [Cather] is no longer at any pains to conceal her disillusion and aversion to most of the life about her.” Yet we saw that the title character might have felt that way, but Cather also drew Chetty as joyfully connected to the new. My 2 cents. (edited) 4y

Currey @Lcsmcat I think you capture Cather‘s disillusionment exactly. I do not think it was the just the first generation and then all was degradation. Rather there were exceptional people that persevered and were able to flourish spiritually in the new land but many more who were unable to. The subsequent generations also had their rare individuals but the times called for different characteristics. 4y

Currey @Lcsmcat Cather also appreciated much of what the second generation would bring, the sculptor, the singers, etc. It was the materialism that accompanied the arts that caused her to write with despair 4y

Lcsmcat @Currey Right! I don‘t think she was hostile to an entire generation. And there were those among the pioneer generation she did not revere, so I felt Kates distorted things a bit. 4y

Graywacke (Sorry, struggling today. Vaccine.) I found Kate‘s essay equal parts annoying and interesting. He brought up a lot of information and ideas I didn‘t know or hadn‘t had laid out for that way. I really liked his take on The Professor‘s House. But many of his perspectives I found irritating. I would have found a more respectful writer, if I‘m the editor. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat i see a lot to like in those two quotes, and I remember the first one. I think in general she really didn‘t like the post wwi world. 4y

Graywacke So, this Avignon story. This is Petrarch‘s time. In 1340 he‘s around the corner, in Vaucluse, criticizing Avignon bitterly. As I‘m reading Petrarch now, I kept looking for a reference. Surely she couldn‘t use the date of 1340 without thinking about Petrarch. ?? !! That‘s him as his prime. In 1348 his Laura will die of the plague. Anyway Kate didn‘t go there or touch on it in any way. I wonder what Cather was thinking about P. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Sorry the vaccine hit you hard! I was intrigued by Kates‘ “arc” if you will, of Cather‘s work, but put off by his certainty that his interpretation was the only one. The source I linked above proposed that Avignon was to be part of a triptych with Archbishop and Shadows on the Rock - a sort of French Catholic theme if you will. I liked that perception. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Ooh, that‘s a cool connection. Cather was steeped in the classics so I bet you‘re right. 4y

Currey @Graywacke Given Cather‘s interest in historical transitional times, I suspect that Cather was more interested in the transformation that the world was going through as Philip IV forced his will into the selection process for Popes and pulled the French popes into “Babylon”, than in the stunningly romantic poetry of Petrarch but hey, what do I know.... 4y

Graywacke @Currey I suspect both, but i may be biased. Had she chose 1320 or 1360 I would agree more. But 1340? It surely seems to make a call that way. P isn‘t just poetry but also the founder of Humanism and definer of the dark ages. (edited) 4y

Currey @Graywacke What of his should I read other than poetry? Or “stack” as they say on Litsy....I know nothing about this time. I just read Albigenses which takes place in the 13th Century but Maturin wrote it in 1824 so it is infused with the language of Sir Walter Scott. However, I still learned a great deal about “the church”. 4y

Graywacke @Currey hmm. I think Wikipedia. 😆 I know, not helpful. No, seriously, I‘m reading P‘s poetry now and I‘m not sure I would recommend it. And that‘s his best stuff. You kind of really need to want to read him to read him. However, he‘s fascinating to read about. (edited) 4y

Currey @Graywacke Ahhh, read about. That I can do! (edited) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Do you like sonnets in general and don‘t recommend Petrarch‘s, or are you not a sonnet aficionado? Because he was so influential in the form, and I love sonnets, but I haven‘t read Petrarch. Shameful, I know. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat his are the only i‘ve read. ☺️ I value him but i‘ve not become a huge fan of his obsession with Laura and his own love pains. So it‘s a context issue. And translation issue. I‘m reading 3 translations and each is so different. 4y

Graywacke *content (not context) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke The translation can make so much difference, especially in poetry! I think I‘ll try library editions to see which translator I prefer. Whenever I finally get around to P. 😀 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat i like Wyatt‘s 🙂 That Wyatt, from Henry Viii era. Also Morris Bishop. Mark Musa is plain. And David Young is just not my taste. Wyatt, of course, is writing his own poem and claiming it‘s a translation. I don‘t know how much of Petrarch he translated (or, his milieu translated). 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Good information. Thanks. 4y

batsy I like that connection between the cliff dwellings & Avignon—the "enchanted bluffs" that underlie her work. I liked Kates' essay & thought it had some sensitive readings of her texts, like Paul's Case for example. I didn't find him harsh or disrespectful; I mostly agree that his analysis of her overall themes, particularly that aspect of transcendence that her fiction is in search of, in refusal of the profit-driven morass of the changing times. 4y

Lcsmcat @batsy I didn‘t find Kates disrespectful, but just a little too sure of himself sometimes. He did point out some of the same themes that we have been discussing over the past years. (Has it been years?) 4y

batsy @Lcsmcat Sorry, I was responding to @Graywacke 's comment there re: a more respectful writer. I understand that Kates being so sure of his position is somewhat annoying, but I think most literary critics tend to stake out their position in that manner (& proceed to argue with other critics 😆) And I guess it has been years? That's pretty amazing. 4y

Lcsmcat @batsy No need to apologize! I like the back and forth. And he was writing in the 1950s, so I try to cut some slack, but he was a bit patronizing towards her, I thought. Not quite allowing her to be a full complicated human. Which is a pet peeve of mine. 🤷🏻‍♀️ 4y

Lcsmcat @batsy On the similarity between the palace and the cliff dwellings, it didn‘t hit me until I was hunting online for a photo of the palace. But then it jumped out. I read that when she visited Avignon she was there with the guide and her friend and no one else - crowds of tourists weren‘t around - so it would have seemed as deserted as,Mesa Verde, too. I‘m not sure what to make of that. 4y

Graywacke @batsy I would roughly say what @Lcsmcat said as an explanation to why I felt it wasn‘t respectful. He writes as a critic of a female writer, not of a writer. (And he oversimplifies. Not enough noticed the dominant pull Europe exerted on her work... ?? That‘s his thesis?) 4y

Lcsmcat So @Graywacke @CarolynM @batsy @jewright @Louise @Sace @Tamra @Suet624 @arubabookwoman @Currey @catebutler @Catherine_Willoughby @crazeedi @mdm139 @Tanisha_A @emilyhaldi @rubyslippersreads @KathyWheeler , where do we go from here? There‘s the novel we skipped, (tagged) and we‘ve played with the idea of a biography or biographies. Any thoughts?

Alexander's Bridge

Graywacke I‘m thinking two things. First I think Alexander‘s Bridge makes a nice next book. (But I‘m ok with anything). Second, what do we do after Cather? Does this group want to look at another author? Someone outside Litsy praised Edith Wharton to me. I‘ve never read her. Of course similar era, but Wharton was (an embittered?) part of the wealthier class. But it‘s just an idea. https://www.edithwharton.org/discover/published-works/ 4y

CarolynM Sorry everyone, I completely forgot this weekend 😳😩 I'll try to catch up in the next day or two. As to where to next, I think we need to read Alexander's Bridge for completeness. Also, my ebook Cather collection includes a volume called Not Under Forty, which seems to be essays. Would anyone else be interested in reading that? I am definitely interested in Edith Wharton @Graywacke I've not read her either, but I've long wanted to. 4y

arubabookwoman I'm also interested in Wharton. Similar era, but I think very different than Cather. I think most of her novels were set in the time contemporary to when she was writing. (No HF). And though she herself was of the wealthy classes, (and many of her books are set in that milieu), many of her novels feature the "lower" classes, as well as those living in genteel poverty. 4y

Graywacke @arubabookwoman my only worry with Wharton is if we will lose our nature connection and miss it. Cather‘s connection to the landscape was very special and a very attractive aspect of her writing. Wharton sounds very society. But perhaps so were most novels from Austen to Woolf (i‘ve read very little of all that, so...just kind blindly saying that without having any idea if it‘s true.) 4y

Graywacke @CarolynM I‘m interested in Not Under 40. Of course I was born around 80 years too late to fit that “not” in the title. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke @CarolynM @arubabookwoman If we want to keep the Cather nature/setting strength, perhaps Jane Smiley or Ivan Doig would be worth exploring. I‘m up for Wharton too, but she is much more about society and its hierarchy than natural settings. 4y

Lcsmcat @CarolynM @Graywacke I‘m curious about Not Under Forty too. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat you remind me you brought up that I should read Eudora Welty. Just tossing that name out there. Or Virginia Woolf - all I have read is A Room of One‘s Own. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Both excellent choices also. We could keep this going for years. 😀 4y

arubabookwoman @Graywacke @Lcsmcat You are right. In my memory of Wharton her novels are not about nature, landscape, setting. I didn't realize that was what the object was. I guess I was thinking early 20th century novelists, female. I know Wharton's considered "society" but I think she focuses much more on individuals rather than society. I've never read Doig, and will admit I don't get on with V.Woolf (but maybe I need to revisit now that I'm older). ???? (edited) 4y

arubabookwoman I like Welty, but her focus is entirely Southern. She does remind me a bit of Faulkner, who I love, but a bit easier to read. And I like what I've read of Smiley, but I'm not sure I'd put her in the same "classic" category as the other authors mentioned. 4y

Lcsmcat @arubabookwoman As far as I‘m concerned the object is to read good books and talk about them. I‘m open to any era, any author, as long as they are well-written works. 4y

Graywacke @arubabookwoman like @Lcsmcat said, just good books. I only brought up nature in case it that aspect was that specifically interested anyone. Wharton sounds like a best choice so far - for us 4 anyway. I‘m really interested in learning about her and reading her work. (edited) 4y

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Lcsmcat

Collected Stories | Willa Cather

Enchanted Bluff and Tom Outland‘s Story. Both concerned with cliff dwellers and the white man‘s reaction to them. Tom is a reread for those who have been with us from the beginning, but in rereading our comments about it from The Professor‘s House I found we didn‘t focus on Tom, so maybe some new perspectives here. As always @chris.wolak gave us lots to think about in her blog posts. Like the double meaning of “bluff” in the first story.

Lcsmcat #catherbuddyread Also the nonfiction Cather wrote about Mesa Verde here: https://cather.unl.edu/writings/nonfiction/nf057 (edited) 4y

Lcsmcat Both these stories struck me as being more about the past being better than the present than about one culture being better than another. I‘ve got two quotes from Tom that I want to throw out there for discussion that we didn‘t focus on last time. 4y

Lcsmcat “He was the sort of fellow who can do anything for somebody else, and nothing for himself. There are lots like that among working-men. They aren‘t trained by success to a sort of systematic selfishness.” 4y

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Lcsmcat “Rodney explained that he knew I cared about the things, and was proud of them, but he‘d always supposed I meant to ‘realize‘ on them, just as he did, and that it would come to money in the end. ‘Everything does,‘ he added.” 4y

Suet624 @Lcsmcat What a quote about the working man who does things for others! I know both types of people. (edited) 4y

Currey @Lcsmcat I did think when I read the second quote while reading the story that it was very human to believe that others understand your motives and intuit your desires without your having to express them. The failure here is not that Rodney sold off his findings but that he did not deeply understand Tom‘s needs. 4y

Graywacke I was surprised how much I enjoyed re-reading the Tom Outland. The end obscured everything for me. I had forgotten how well she fleshed out the beginning - the gambling, Rodney‘s personality, the cow herding on the grassland - the town armpit vs the natural purity and its impact on Tom‘s mentality. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat you‘re sharp to pick up her golden age themes. Everything was better in 1890 than in these money focused times. Very subtle here - i hadn‘t fully noticed - but yeah, it‘s there. I love those quotes, especially the 1st sentence in the first one. - it‘s a nice sentiment, but also it works so well in the meter, so to speak. It all comes down to one word, and needing the context. (edited) 4y

Graywacke @Currey i was thinking how in the whole story of personal refreshment, we assume Tom was speaking for everyone. But it turns out we readers were wrong (or, at least this one was). Tom was only speaking for himself. Rodney was just working. That hit me. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat “the houses of the Pueblo Indians to-day and of their ancestors on the Mesa Verde are a reproach to the messiness in which we live.” From the essay. Thanks for linking. 4y

Graywacke On TEB - I liked Arthur Adams. “When I had talked with him for an hour and heard him laugh again, I wondered how it was that when nature had taken such pains with a man, from his hands to the arch of his long foot, she had ever lost him in Sandtown” 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Such a great quote about Adams! 4y

Lcsmcat @Currey We all know this intellectually, which is why it resonates. And yet it‘s so difficult for us to act this way! I had so much more sympathy for Rodney this time around. And, like Tom. I want to know what happened to him! 4y

Currey @Graywacke Good point about the assumption that Tom was speaking for everyone. Rodney was not even just working, he thought he was working for a common goal. 4y

Currey @Graywacke @Lcsmcat Yes, really great quote on Adams. So visual and cerebral at the same time 4y

batsy @Graywacke I was just going to come here to post that quote about Adams. There is a kind of underlying heartache in Cather's stories about these unique and sensitive characters lost to the circumstances of their time or the place they can't escape from. 4y

Lcsmcat @batsy Do you think that‘s why the “time jump” at the end works? Because it increases the pathos? And do you think it was all a “bluff” or did the boys, as they grew to men, think that someday they would make it to the bluff? 4y

Lcsmcat BTW, if you haven‘t been to Mesa Verde, add it to your bucket list! We took the kids there about 15 years ago and it was so much more than you get from a photo. Breathtaking! 4y

Graywacke @batsy yes, heartache. He‘s beautiful and also lost. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat i want to say something on the “time jump”. The bluff is essentially a fantasy (a life bluff, as Chris sort a noted) because they will never get there. It maybe represents child‘s fantasy about their future life. And so, maybe, by jumping ahead and removing the magic, exposing the bland futures they actually have, she exposes the gap between the fantasy and reality, childhood optimism and adult reality. Maybe not, also. 4y

batsy @Lcsmcat That time jump is something Cather uses to emphasise pathos & I do like the yearning wistfulness of it; there's always the sense of the search for something transcendental. I feel like the narrator & Tip are still the romantics in that sense. I'd like to think they (and little Bert) are still attempting to get to the bluff. And it's telling that the boys who might not be as keen still are the ones who ventured into finance & business. 4y

batsy @Lcsmcat Though I just might be reading into it a bit too much there :) 4y

Lcsmcat @batsy @Graywacke Good points, both of you, on the time jump. Cather does both romanticize childhood and denigrate (too strong a word, but I can‘t think of another right now) the business/banking world. Wistful is a great word to describe that story. 4y

Graywacke @batsy interesting comment, all of it. It is telling. @Lcsmcat romanticize childhood? Seems obvious now that you said it. But I hadn‘t picked up in that before. (Sorry for the 9 hr later response. Travel day 😕) 4y

CarolynM I thought TEB was a really lovely story. @Graywacke @batsy @Lcsmcat Picking up your points about yearning and romanticising childhood, it made me think that maybe Cather's nostalgia is as much for lost youth as for past times. How you see the world, what seems important to you, what seems possible are all so different at different stages of life. A lot of her work examines that gap between childhood and the mature person. (edited) 4y

batsy @CarolynM Nicely said and I agree. That's maybe why her artist characters continue to struggle with the world; the qualities of being a child (openness, wonder, possibility) that they need to cultivate stand in (increasing) contrast to the age of industrialisation and finance. 4y

CarolynM @batsy Thank you. I hadn't thought to take it that step further, but I think you're right. 4y

Lcsmcat @CarolynM @batsy That‘s a great insight. Her artists are driven, but they are also child-like in the ways you mention. We all commented on the yearning for lost youth when we read The Professor‘s House, but I can see it in other works now too. Niel in Lost Lady missed more his impression of Mrs. F than who she actually was; Jim in Antonia; Cecile in Shadows on the Rock. They all had a yearning for the past quality. 4y

Lcsmcat @CarolynM @batsy @Graywacke The Cather archives has images of TEB in its original publication here https://cather.unl.edu/writings/shortfiction/ss001 I don‘t know how much control, if any, Cather had over the illustrations, but they‘re VERY nostalgic. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat hi. In case you missed them, check your email for my last one. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke 👍🏻 4y

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Lcsmcat

Collected Stories | Willa Cather

#alone #quotsyapr21 @TK-421

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Graywacke

Collected Stories | Willa Cather

This week we look at the two last stories Cather completed.
#catherbuddyread

The Best Years, written for her brother in 1945, looks at Evangeline Knightly‘s experiences with a bright teenage teacher in rural Nebraska. Before Breakfast (1944) covers Henry Grenfell‘s emotional swings alone on Grand Manan Island, Nova Scotia

This completes The Old Beauty and Others. Next - one week off then @Lcsmcat leads the selection from Five Stories (1956)

Graywacke I found @chris.wolak ‘s posts really helpful this week. https://chriswolak.com/2020/05/13/may-2020-reminder-for-the-willa-cather-short-s...

https://chriswolak.com/2020/05/27/response-to-the-best-years-the-willa-cather-sh... 4y

Graywacke https://chriswolak.com/2020/06/10/june-2020-reminder-for-the-willa-cather-short-...

https://chriswolak.com/2020/06/24/response-to-before-breakfast-the-willa-cather-... 4y

Graywacke Personally, i was shocked by the first story, but then forgot about it as I read about Henry‘s troubles and enjoyed the language Cather used to describe it. Of course, Henry regathers himself in a nice moment before coming home to breakfast. Thoughts? 4y

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Graywacke @Lcsmcat @CarolynM @batsy @jewright @Louise @Sace @Tamra @Suet624 @arubabookwoman @Currey @catebutler @Catherine_Willoughby @crazeedi @mdm139 @Tanisha_A @emilyhaldi @rubyslippersreads @KathyWheeler of course let me know if you want off or on this list. 4y

Lcsmcat One of the things that popped out at me in Before Breakfast: he was reading law in CO when he met his wife, who was from NY people. But he‘s in bonds now (which I took to be insurance or finance, not law) and on the East coast, given his island retreat. So is his alienation from family because his mother in law (who always got her way) got him into a different job (family business?) and state and basically controlled how his life turned out? 👇🏻 4y

Lcsmcat 👆🏻 Why else would his “private life” be separate from his “family life?” 4y

Lcsmcat In the first, I was surprised by Leslie‘s death, but by the time I finished the story it was clear that it wasn‘t her story. I‘m not sure it was Miss Knightly‘s either. It seemed more to belong to an era than a character and, like, Beauty, to be about the passing of time and who deals with it well and who doesn‘t. I loved Ms. Knightly as a character, but Molly (the horse) might be my favorite. 😀 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat “bonds” has two meanings. 🙂 (And his marriage was a kind of wreck, literally founded on one.) but he does seem to like to work. Honestly, I neglected thinking that part through. i was too stuck on “everything that was shut up in him, under lock and bolt and pressure, simply broke jail, spread out into the spaciousness of the night, undraped, unashamed” 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Good point about bonds! And the quote? If he liked hard work (which I agree with you on) then what was shut up under lock and bolt and pressure? It felt to me like that was because he was living a life that wasn‘t authentic. That quote about only being your true self when no one is looking - it made me feel that a major part of his life was spent living someone else‘s values. Like Mrs. Fergusson‘s new house that was her husband‘s taste. 4y

batsy I really enjoyed The Bright Years. It felt like a wiser, sadder, more mature Laura Ingalls Wilder story! I was surprised by Leslie's death too & felt a missed opportunity for a story of female friendship between her & Miss Knightly. But I loved the depiction of Leslie's relationship with her brothers & their upstairs world: "a story in itself, a secret romance". Particularly poignant since Cather based it on her own relationship with her brother. 4y

batsy The second story struck me mainly in terms of how much more I'd like to get to know the geologist's daughter! She seems fascinating. Also the painterly language and vivid description of her bathing that was probably a reference to Botticelli's Venus? I have to think some more about what I thought about Grenfell; that quote struck me, too @Graywacke 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @batsy - on TBY - it felt to me to be about an era, mostly, too. The time shift from buggy to car, from knights (er, Knightly), to Wanda Bliss (!!). Poor Molly has been become obsolete. And Cather gets in her point about the shallower new era, even if Mrs. k is more kind about it. And, I like that quote, @batsy. Sibling affection, homeness, is really meaningful here. 4y

Graywacke Any thoughts on that barbed wire? Mrs. K‘s note that they are less visible and nicer to the view does not erase the fact that they fundamentally change and contain the wildness of the landscape and of where ms. k can roam. It‘s unspoken - invisible barriers. Important here? (Perhaps, for example, a reference to gender roles, or marriage, or... ) (edited) 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat i think your feeling is spot on. The more I think about it the more I think about that lie of life. We do and do and it distracts us from all the other stuff in life. He works because that‘s how he got ahead, and now that‘s how he escapes his family and self-fulfillment. He just chases blindly, he‘s escaping himself. And that‘s part of his morning catharsis. (To answer @chris.wolak ‘s question - I don‘t think it will change him one bit.) 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat oops. Last post was, of course, on BB. 4y

Graywacke @batsy on BB - Surely we don‘t get to know a goddess. 🙂 Our Venus, this daughter, must remain distant and mysterious and worth some reflection. ?? I LOVED, all caps, the little geological element. If he‘s right, the rocks are Cretaceous. Wait... i can look this up! (web 🤿 ... ) 4y

Graywacke http://magnificentrocks-rochesmagnifique.ca/the_periods-les_periodes/permian_tri... Cambrian = 541 to 485 million years ago (ma), Triassic 245-201 ma (these basalts should be closer to 201 ma). 😁☺️ 4y

Graywacke http://earth2geologists.net/grandmanangeology/GM_Bedrock_Map_2013_modified_JGM.p... (yellow, greens, blues and grays are Cambrian. Peaches and pinks Triassic) 4y

Graywacke (Hopefully us Shakespeare readalong peeps picked up on the Henry VI reference. For Shakespeare, Hvi marked the end of the era of chivalry and the beginning of cut-throat power plays. That is a near perfect parallel for Cather‘s WWI - or, as she preferred, her 1922. Glenfell is living cut-throat capitalism, but grew up in more heroic pioneer Colorado. Anyway, links us into tomorrow... 😁) (edited) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke While H VI would be a great parallel, the play in the story is actually HenryIV. So I read it as the father-son difficulty. G just doesn‘t get his son and his son doesn‘t get him. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke re the barbed wire - I love your idea that it represents unspoken barriers. Miss K. is so independent, but in the end she ends up Mrs. somebody. But Mrs. F saying she can‘t call her that could also point to some (mild) subversion. PEO (which I‘ve never seen in a story before!) was newish then and is dedicated to higher education for women. So Mr. F wasn‘t the only progressive one. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat vi iv —- 🙈🤦🏻‍♂️ thanks. (Now I have to wonder about Falstaff...) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I also appreciate the geologist‘s insight into that part of the story. Like G. that isn‘t what I read for pleasure so it helps to have your interpretation. (But I won‘t lose sleep over it. 😂) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke There‘s a reason we use Arabic numerals! Did you catch the Pilgrims Progress reference, too? Cather was dropping literary references left and right! 4y

Lcsmcat @batsy More mature Wilder is a great comparison! Leslie‘s relationship with her brothers was great, but it felt a bit like it was being used to point out the lack of relationship with her father. It makes me curious about Cather‘s relationship with her father. There seem to be a lot of “disconnected” fathers in her fiction. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat PEO? 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I could tell you what it stands for but then I‘d have to kill you. 😂 We‘re an organization that raises money to send women to college, or to graduate school, owns a women‘s college in Missouri, and supports education for women. Started by 7 girls at a small college in Iowa in 1869, we‘re now world-wide. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat endangering my life, I looked it up. Cool that it‘s mentioned here (and that it exists). 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke It made me wonder if 1) Cather was a PEO, and 2) if “Methodist Win-a-Couple” was real. (And if so, what the H was it?) 4y

Currey I was happy while reading The Bright Years because as @batsy said, it was a wiser version of Wilder and really seemed to capture a balance between a sentimental attachment to the past versus being stuck in the past. I was not surprised by Leslie‘s death as how soon it happened. However, like @Graywacke I largely forgot about it when reading Breakfast. 4y

Currey @Lcsmcat Good insight about fathers. The father son relationship in Breakfast is obviously strained by having no shared foundation on which to understand each other. I did totally love the fact that he didn‘t have to rescue the daughter and I was happy that he realized it. 4y

Lcsmcat @Currey Yes, it was great that he realized it before she had to be aware of his impulse. 4y

batsy @Lcsmcat That's a good point about fathers in her fiction. Maybe Neighbour Rosicky is one significant departure from her usual stories? The connection with his daughter-in-law that might be a version of a father-daughter relationship that Cather saw as ideal. 4y

batsy @Graywacke Ah yes, good point! The mystique and allure will be gone if we got to know her better. I picked up on the Henry IV reference too and perked up a bit :) It does seem interesting in the sense that it's a play about competing masculine (patriarchal) interests and that seems to be an underlying concern for Grenfell. 4y

batsy @Graywacke Thanks for the links about rocks; I have a bit of a nerdy interest in geology 😆 4y

CarolynM I don't have much to add here. I enjoyed TBY, I saw it as largely a story about change. We often here about the pace of change in the modern world, it was interesting to consider how much difference the move from horses to cars made in that 15 year period. BB left me a bit cold. I like the various references highlighted in the comments here but I didn't pick them up. I was interested that the absent father motif appears in both stories, but👇 4y

CarolynM ☝️examined from different perspectives. In TBY it leaves the mother isolated and looking backwards rather than forwards once her children are no longer dependant on her, while in BB the father is shown as the isolated one, unable to share enjoyment (holidays, entertainments) with his wife or children. 4y

Lcsmcat @batsy I agree that Rosicky is an exception. He‘s an engaged, loving father. She has others who are engaged but not loving, and loving but not engaged, so they‘re not one-size-fits-all by any means. 4y

Lcsmcat @CarolynM The pace of change really picked up in this era, didn‘t it? My grandparents went from riding a mule to school to seeing the space shuttle, and all that came between. I often think, even with all the changes I have seen, that generation had the most head-spinning rate of change of any. 4y

Lcsmcat @batsy “competing masculin (patriarchal) interests” Yes - you manage to say things so clearly while I‘m stumbling around the edges of an idea. (edited) 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat couldn‘t find anything on “Methodist Win-a-couple”. Although googling “Methodist” and “couple” together does overwhelm the results with the Methodist gay marriage split. 4y

Graywacke @Currey @Lcsmcat @batsy @CarolynM we saw in Old Mrs. Harris that Cather‘s father might have had some oddball undesirable characteristics, and I think we are seeing more in TBY. Keep in mind that part of the divide in BB is because the father and son are of different eras and their strain represents that, to a degree. Overall - 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke You thought the strain between G and son was the era? Hm. His “I‘m glad my hands are grubby” line meant that the divide was more based on self-made man vs. easy-life son. Which was slightly related to the era, but more related to the social differences between husband and wife. I‘ll have to think about this. 4y

Graywacke @batsy @Lcsmcat hmm. Glenfell, Hiv and “competing masculin (patriarchal) interests”. I don‘t have much to add her except to say, thanks for highlighting. Thinking. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat pioneer principled heroes and their spoiled ruthless materialistic children. 🙂 Yes, my mind is hanging on that. Another on A Lost Lady theme. 4y

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Graywacke

Collected Stories | Willa Cather

The Old Beauty (1948)
#catherbuddyread.

A story of friendship and of an era, a nice story, that can get lost in the story around it.

Finally, a story about a lesbian relationship (albeit subtle), but one that Cather not only never submitted, but didn‘t save. A friend preserved it. It has parallels to Cather‘s life with Edith Lewis (pictured). The death in the story and posthumous publication seem to emphasize the life parallels.

Thoughts?

Lcsmcat, Suet624

Graywacke @chris.wolak notes: “She‘d sent it to the Woman‘s Home Companion in 1936, but withdrew it.” 4y

Graywacke Reading Wolak‘s post, i was surprised not to see anything about the likely lesbian relationship between Madame de Couçy and Madame Allison. It seems obvious to me - the boy acting (something Wolek notes Cather did), the living together and “the queerest partnership that war and desolation have made” all sum together. But you can read this story without any of that, and think instead about WWI, what was lost and the new post-war priorities. 4y

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Graywacke Next week, April 10: The Best Years & Before Breakfast 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I didn‘t immediately pick up on a lesbian relationship, but the two-sidedness of everyone, the public face vs. private face, all the masks and disguises, certainly could carry that meaning as well. I‘ve been thinking a lot during this pandemic about how WWI and WWII changed the world in unpredictable ways and how so many people thought that once peace was declared things would “go back to normal.” Because obviously they didn‘t, 👇🏻 4y

Lcsmcat Test 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat re Test - Litsy just ate my Shakespeare post. 😭😭 (ETA it‘s back 🕺🏻🕺🏻) (edited) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke And now it‘s there. 😀 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat 🙂 4y

Lcsmcat 👆🏻(cont.) and no one knew _how_ they would be different until they were. Chetty is able to roll with that better than Gabrielle and some others. (edited) 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat The parallels with our new normal are thought provoking! (Also, appreciate your public-private face comment). 4y

Suet624 I‘ve been meaning to send this to you for a while. Way down in the article (way down!) the write talks about lesbianism a d Edith Lewis/Willa Cather. Thought you might be interested. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/02/a-walk-in-willa-cathers-prairie 4y

batsy I feel a bit dense for not picking up on a lesbian relationship here! I'm certainly seeing that possibility now. What really struck me is Cather's continued complex relationship with female beauty—sometimes she seems to be in judgment of it, & at other points she is astute about its burdens on women. Also, the sexual assault & the subtle criticism of patriarchal norms that exist among the class of men Cather is wary of: bankers, capitalists 👇🏽 4y

batsy The way these men only know how to take, & see everything, including women, as property. 4y

Graywacke @Suet624 thanks. I will get there. 4y

Graywacke @batsy Oh, thanks for this comment. So much to think about. I always love how Cather just lays it out, as a foundation of the world. This character had this look and it leaves this impression on society. Now, let‘s move on with the consequences. (edited) 4y

Lcsmcat @Suet624 Thanks for sharing! 4y

Lcsmcat @batsy Yes! She is hard on the men who take and also I think on the women who don‘t _do_ anything and just get by on being beautiful. She always seems to throw in hard, and/or cold, type descriptions as part of their beauty. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat Gabrielle is really trapped in that lost world. It‘s a little odd, no? Curious. 4y

Graywacke @batsy on “patriarchal norma” - it‘s interesting to me that Cather has such a romantic and also critical view of this lost world. I thought here she excoriated the objectification of women while also, at the same time, adapting it to what she appreciates, and using it as a touch point to the honorable “great men”. (Also, oye, the rapist was explained in terribly racist terms. Calaban-ed) And that materialism, here again, right? (edited) 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat types... I‘ll argue it‘s a flaw, a simplification she couldn‘t resist. I think she mostly managed it for her era, but not as well for ours. 4y

Currey @Graywacke @Lcsmcat @batsy So wonderful to catch up. I had to work this morning.... I did think of the lesbian relationship because of the story calling out that Chetty was not a paid companion, that she took boy parts, that she acknowledged their relationship as odd. Obviously, they could simply be friends but it did come to mind that they were more than that. Also, I agree that our banker is once again painted as a dark immigrant rapist. (edited) 4y

Currey @Graywacke @Lcsmcat @batsy I was also disquieted by how many times Cather mentions the lack of wit, the lack of sparkle in her eye, the lack of intelligent conversation. Gabrielle sounds like an object. However, when we actually encounter her she is thoughtful and although regretful of not living a fuller life when she could have, she is not without insights into a lost world, and great men and the light hearted delight of a younger companion. 4y

Graywacke @Suet624 oh, that article! ❤️ Who is this person, this Cather who makes up interviews and her birth year? This trickster was not in my imagination of her mindset. I‘m fascinated and re-thinking everything. That‘s a wonderful warm enlightening essay. 4y

Graywacke @Currey Great comment on Gabrielle. Again, there‘s more there than what Cather is directly telling us. And maybe what she‘s telling us is a misdirection(?) I think Gabrielle both was and was not “beautiful, that was all.” 4y

Suet624 Hahaha. I‘m happy you enjoyed it so much. 4y

CarolynM There is so much in this story! I'm personally suspicious of nostalgia, I don't think things were better in the past. I think many people find life more difficult as they age, so they look back to when they found it easier and think it was easier because of the change in the world rather than the change in them. I enjoyed the way the story looked at these ideas. I was struck by S's remark about the French Revolution being "gentlemanly" compared? 4y

CarolynM ☝️to WWI. I guess I understand the sentiment, but really? The scale of the killing might have been less, but does that make it less horrifying? The lesbian relationship is possible, but I'm not sure how much it matters in this particular story - C seems to have her place as closest confident and chief mourner recognised. Interesting, though, that those with friendly attitudes toward G set store by C's place as friend rather than paid companion.👇 4y

CarolynM ☝️Yes to @batsy 's point about the banker being the villain again and about that type perceiving women as property. Interesting that he was described only as an "immigrant" - I was bracing myself for the word "Jew" and very glad not to see it - does this indicate a hardening of her attitude towards all immigrants, rather than the way she distinguished between ethnic/cultural groups in earlier works? Or is it intended to soften the criticism? 4y

CarolynM ☝️of capitalists? I thought the descriptions of the younger G were meant to distinguish her from other beauties but I agree with @Currey that the old woman we meet is hard to reconcile with the description of her younger self. Maybe it was S's youthful lack of perception that made him remember her so. Here in Australia we are in the middle of a political storm about the treatment of women working in the federal parliament, and by extension 👇 4y

CarolynM ☝️about the treatment of women in our society generally (don't google it, it is most unedifying) so it is hard not to read this story without reflecting on the attitude to sexual assault reflected here. There is no suggestion that the banker could be guilty of a crime, no-one will seek to hold him accountable. G sells at a loss and moves away and when she alludes to the event to S she is effectively told to forget about it. I could go on... 4y

Graywacke @CarolynM The French Revolution comment caught my attention too. And I agree about the issues with Cather's nostalgia for the past. Her idea of how the world broke around 1922 is a little awkward. In Nebraska, it simply overlooks the American Indian wipe-out. But her view is also interesting. But today's problems weren't easier 20 years ago, regardless of when today is (excluding times of disaster). 4y

CarolynM Thanks for the link to the article @Suet624 Most interesting. 4y

Graywacke @CarolynM Also interesting about Australia today and how little has changed with these predators, and how society still casually accepts that this will happen. 4y

Lcsmcat @CarolynM @Graywacke The French Revolution comment pulled me up short too. The best I could make of it was that Cather was making your point on nostalgia. We think our horrors were worse than those we think of as history. So book clubs today read all these misty-eyed books set in WWII, and laud the “greatest generation.” 4y

Lcsmcat @CarolynM G really is defined by the bad actions of men around her, isn‘t she? She loses her social position when her husband divorces her, even though he gave her the grounds (meaning he had to at least pretend to cheat on her if not actually do it), sells at a loss to leave NY after attempted rape, hides her identity at the end of her life because she‘s “notorious.” But what did she do to earn that? Have male friends & not female. 4y

chris.wolak @Graywacke Update on this story. It was supposed to be included in the The Troll Garden but Dorothy Canfield Fisher petitioned the publisher to have it removed because she thought it harmful to the woman she thought the story was based on (Evelyn Osborne). Cather argued against this but Fisher won out and the publisher pulled the story. After Osborne died, the story was published in McClure‘s Magazine in 1907. That‘s Isabelle McClung in the photo. 4y

chris.wolak @Graywacke I highly recommend Melissa Homestead‘s new book, The Only Wonderful Things: The Creative Partnership of Willa Cather and Edith Lewis. The most accurate biographical details to date based on newly available primary sources. 4y

Graywacke @chris.wolak !! Thank you! Thanks for the corrections and updates. I didn‘t know about the picture. However, I‘m a little confused by the 1907 date. Surely WWI predates The Old Beauty. Also, thanks for recommending Melissa Homestead‘s book. That will be of interest to all of us.

The Only Wonderful Things: The Creative Partnership of Willa Cather and Edith Lewis

chris.wolak @Graywacke Oh, my bad!!! I saw the photo and my mind immediately went to a story called The Profile and I got swept up in the moment (note to self: do not post before you‘ve had sufficient amount of morning coffee). Sorry for the confusion! (edited) 4y

Graywacke @chris.wolak ☺️ it‘s ok. I don‘t know The Profile. Should we add it on our list? (edited) 4y

chris.wolak @Graywacke Maybe? I‘m curious to re-visit it now. It is available on the Willa Cather Archive if you want to check it out, https://cather.unl.edu/writings/shortfiction/ss002 4y

Graywacke @chris.wolak did you post on it in your site? (PS: thanks again for stopping by. I really appreciate your posts in these stories and all the info within.) 4y

chris.wolak @Graywacke My pleasure, and thank you for your group! I look forward to the end of the semester when I can dive in deeper here. I have not posted about The Profile. According to the reading schedule for phase 2 of the short story project, it‘s not up until Aug 2023! I am definitely going to read it before then. 🤓 4y

Louise @Graywacke Hi, Dan, please keep me on the group list. I‘m sorry I‘ve been absent for a while. We‘re getting organized for a move, and it‘s been pretty stressful. 4y

jewright @Lcsmcat That line really reminded me about our current situation. My heart aches so for the normal, and I‘m really afraid it will never be. I did wonder if her husband divorced her because she was having an affair with his relative. The assault section is heart breaking. Note that there was never any mention of calling the authorities because there was no point. 4y

Lcsmcat @jewright I didn‘t see any evidence in the story that G was having an affair with his cousin, other than she stayed with G after the divorce. It explicitly says “he established the statutory grounds, she petitioning for the decree.” Which means she was the innocent party. 4y

CarolynM @Lcsmcat "misty eyed books set in WWII" ?? 4y

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Lcsmcat

Collected Stories | Willa Cather

Old Mrs. Harris and Two Friends are our stories today for the #catherbuddyread The first was originally titled “Three Women” and is said to be “extremely biographical.” Above are Cather (left) and her mother (right) from the National Willa Cather Center online. I couldn‘t find an image of her maternal grandmother.
Does the story “work” better for you with one title or the other?

Lcsmcat Did Cather want us to share Mrs. Rosen‘s opinions, (especially on Victoria) and if not what‘s her purpose in the story? Which of the four women (I include Mrs. R) spoke to you? And what was up with the clueless husband, Hillary T.? 4y

Lcsmcat About Two Friends, Cather wrote to a friend “I don't know if "Two Friends" is out yet, but I saw proofs of it before I left New York and ever since have wanted to prepare you for the dreadful illustrations. The editor gives a western story to some nut who has never been west of Hoboken, and who thinks that all Western men are rough-necks. I hate publishing stories in magazines, anyway, and only do it because they pay me very well.” 4y

Lcsmcat Which made me want to find copies of those “dreadful illustrations!” @chris.wolak writes that she pictured the child narrator as a younger Vicky. I saw a young barefoot boy. Who did you see? And gee, does the political situation seem familiar? 4y

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Lcsmcat @CarolynM @batsy @jewright @Louise @Sace @Tamra @Suet624 @arubabookwoman @Currey @catebutler @Catherine_Willoughby @crazeedi @mdm139 @Tanisha_A @emilyhaldi @rubyslippersreads @KathyWheeler @Graywacke of course let me know if you want off or on this list. 4y

Graywacke Where to begin? First I liked these more prolonged character studies. And second I never considered Old Mrs. Harris might be autobiographical. How interesting, but also not complimentary to her parents. And third, again, a lot on death. 4y

Graywacke On the title of OMH. I think the title does change the readers expectation of the story. When the story seemed to be about Vickie, I found myself surprised a bit. On the other hand all the Mrs.-es are weird to me regardless. Hillary called his MiL Mrs Harris? Do we never learn her name? 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat on the next OMH questions - I appreciated that Mrs Rosen was not a Jewish stereotype. She was imperfect but in her own way. I was fascinated by her. I thought her opinions were varied and almost irreconcilable. Overly materialistic but also human. Very educated but also not foregrounding it. Driven by community expectation, a scary influential community leader, but also sincere and insightful. 4y

Graywacke Mrs R‘s purpose seems to me to be the Cather observer. It‘s mostly her opinions i used to see the three women. Maybe she is the one that spoke to me. But, of course, I was pulling for Vickie. I thought Mrs. T never dealt with what she was criticized for, and Mrs H was always a mystery to me. 4y

Graywacke I‘ll add the the story really emphasizes to me the financial dependence of the women on these men they are named after or otherwise attached to. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat The situation on TTF is so current except the arguments seem more tangible today to everyday life when orange means a lot of really bad stuff. I liked both characters. I caught the narrator was a girl only because she was playing jacks and that seemed like a girl thing, especially to go unnoticed. Otherwise I would have assumed a boy. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat thanks for the post and questions 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Going backwards, I hadn‘t thought of Jack‘s as a “girl thing.” Maybe because I‘m a girl? 😂 But if so, that would be the best clue we have. 4y

Lcsmcat Three Women made more sense as a title to me. It made it “hold together” better. Mrs. R was definitely the observer, but I couldn‘t get a hold on her real opinion of Mrs. H. “Irreconcilable opinions” is a good way to word it. I found myself saying “wait - I thought you believed x.” a lot. 4y

Lcsmcat The Mrs. -es are just one way Cather uses to show how little control these women have over their own lives. They have no money of their own (or it‘s taken from them, like Mrs. H) and no control over where they live, or even their bodies, as Mrs. T‘s unwanted pregnancy shows. 4y

Lcsmcat I feel like I short changed Two Friends a bit. Cather had this to say: "Old Mrs. Harris" is the more interesting, perhaps; but I think "Two Friends" is the best short story I have ever done. It's a little like a picture by Courbet; has that queer romantic sort of realism.” And it is painting like, in that it‘s a frozen-in-time scene of a complicated friendship and the reader/observer has to fill in the details. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat “the best story I have ever done” ? Hmm. Ok WC, not to me, but I liked TTF. It really captures a time and place, and i loved how the narrator enjoyed the theater through their discussions. And it‘s entertaining. (“I like tragedy, but that play‘s a little too tragic. Something very dark about it. I think I prefer Hamlet“ on Richard II ) 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat good point about the (unwanted) pregnancy. Agree about Mrs. r and interesting about your opinion on the title. And Jack‘s - well, when i was a kid it was a something girl put some effort into and, admiring the focus and excitement, something girls had to show me how to play. 4y

Lcsmcat Digging in the internet sandbox, I found this https://mises.org/library/willa-cathers-capitalism Know the bias of the Mises Institute (libertarian) as you read, and Two Friends appears way down - section V - but it adds to my understanding of the story as a choice between friendship and politics & how the men chose one way and the narrator the other. Interesting stuff about O Pioneers! in the first sections. 4y

Currey I did enjoy both readings this week but not sure they are the best I have ever read of Cather. In TTF I definitely read the observer as a boy because he was allowed to be around two gruff men. Boys played jacks also. I will have to twist my head around to think of it as a young girl. 4y

Currey @lcsmcat I agree with you on old Mrs Harris - that it points out the lack of control women had even within their own spheres of influence. And I appreciated Mrs R not being a stereotypical Jew. She had opinions and judgements that did not align but nevertheless she seemed to have a largely good heart and a intelligent perspective to understand she could help Mrs Harris just by being with her 4y

Currey I liked the title OMH rather than Three Women because it is an interesting misdirect. I thought I would come to understand her but there was little to understand there. Her prescribed status (running the household) did not work for the time and place. I did get more insight into Mrs R and Victoria 4y

Currey @Graywacke Yes! What was Mr H T about? Do you think Cather had a relative like that? 4y

Lcsmcat @Currey Interesting thought that OMH could be an intentional misdirect. Cather seems so deliberate in her word choices that I felt odd preferring the title she rejected. 4y

Lcsmcat @Currey @Graywacke I think WC probably did have relatives like Mr. T. But more intriguing to me is, did she have a neighbor like Mrs. R? And if she did, why didn‘t it make her other portrayals of Jewish characters more nuanced? 4y

Currey @Lcsmcat That is a good question. Her other Jewish characters are not nearly as nuanced. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @Currey I was thinking the same. Although I do think her Jewish characters have nuance, they also almost always seem to represent the low end of capitalism. And we see them a lot in her stories. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke @Currey There‘s a lot about capitalism in her works. The Mises article I linked above is about that. And you‘re right, Cather has not portrayed refined, educated Jews in other works we‘ve read. (edited) 4y

Lcsmcat I‘ve been thinking a lot about why I, a female reader, saw the narrator of TTF (written by a female author) as male. And why, when @Graywacke pointed out the jacks clue, I still wanted it to be a boy. No answers, exactly, but I think, having read these 2 stories together, and all the focus on the constraint women & girls were under, I couldn‘t imagine that much freedom for a girl. If the men had stayed friends would she have been allowed to 👇🏻 4y

Lcsmcat 👆🏻hang out with them at 14? To my mind 13, even seems a little old for a girl to run that free in that era. Maybe that was part of the western ethos we didn‘t get in the south. 😀 4y

rubyslippersreads I‘d like to stay on the list, even though I don‘t participate every time. And I used to love playing jacks. 😄 4y

Lcsmcat @rubyslippersreads Of course! Chime in whenever you like. 4y

Currey @Lcsmcat @Graywacke Yes, I saw the observer as a boy for exactly the same reason you did. Would they have allowed a girl to hang out like that? “Why are you not at home helping your ma with the laundry?” However, either way, I do think he/she marvelously captured the essence of two older men who gave to him/her a view of a larger world. Plus he/she came to understand, presumably at a much later date, what a rare and wonderful coupling it was 4y

CarolynM I loved OMH (and I like the title because I think she was very much the focal point of the story) because of the steady gaze on the interaction between a group of ordinary women. I wished it was longer - even a whole novel! I was startled by the asserted cultural differences of "the South". Is this true? I was also interested in the depiction of Jewish characters here, and how they fitted in the society. I agree with @Graywacke about her usual? 4y

CarolynM ☝️use of Jewish characters & how different this was. I'm sure it's deliberate that Mr R is described as the only unsuccessful member of a rich family (I can't find the exact quote unfortunately) I also liked the comments on child rearing🙂 TF suffered by comparison for me. Funnily enough, I did think the narrator was a girl, maybe just because I was in the female mindset after OMH. Clearly there's nothing new about politics severing friendships! 4y

Lcsmcat @CarolynM The mother-in-law as drudge is not a southern cultural phenomenon I‘m familiar with. And I‘m a southerner with Tennessee roots, although not mountain Tennessee. (And not in the late 1800s!) 😂 4y

Lcsmcat @CarolynM I felt like OMH could have been expanded into a novel, too. I wanted to know more. 4y

CarolynM @Lcsmcat The whole idea of girls having no responsibilities and young married women doing nothing but having babies and socialising seems so unlikely, not to mention the apparently itinerant older women who just turn up when needed in return for a gift in their bag when they depart! Presumably there's some basis for this, but I wonder what the reality was. Your point about women being financially dependent may be part of it. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat I finally read the Mises article (took a little while) and it was fun to revisit all works in this light. And it adds weight to TFs. I do wonder why Dillon‘s initials were RED. Like Marxist red? Red Cloud? Trueman‘s name is a little silly in that light, maybe. 4y

Graywacke @rubyslippersreads thanks for noting the Jacks! 🙂 4y

Graywacke @Currey the narrator in TFs - maybe the gender is intentionally ambiguous? He/she (?) talks to Trueman late in the story and I looked for hints in that exchange but couldn‘t pick up on any. 4y

Graywacke @CarolynM Glad you like OMH so much. I agree that it could have been expanded, there seemed more to say. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Oooh, I hadn‘t noticed the initials! And “true-man” - it kind of lets you know which side the author is on, doesn‘t it? 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke @rubyslippersreads The jacks sent me on another internet dive, as well as quizzing my husband about his childhood games. And “Jack‘s were for girls; marbles were for boys” came up over and over again. Even in a current article about what kids can do during the lack of organized sports during the pandemic. So I think Dan gets the gold star for most attentive reader on this one. ⭐️ 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat embracing my star 🙂 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @CarolynM @batsy @jewright @Louise @Sace @Tamra @Suet624 @arubabookwoman @Currey @catebutler @Catherine_Willoughby @crazeedi @mdm139 @Tanisha_A @emilyhaldi @rubyslippersreads @KathyWheeler Reminder - we have a break this week. Next Saturday, April 3, we‘ll go over one story: The Old Beauty. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I‘m looking forward to it! 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat Yay. I'm looking forward to our chatting here, which I adore. But I'm losing a little steam with the stories. 🙁 4y

CarolynM Thanks @Graywacke I'm still enjoying the stories, but it's good to keep breaking them up as we have🙂 4y

Lcsmcat @CarolynM @Graywacke The last 2 weren‘t as sparkling as her other work, but I‘ve started this week‘s and I‘m enjoying it. 4y

batsy @Graywacke I must admit that I'm losing a little steam with the stories, too. However this break was much needed and starting to look forward to picking it up again. 4y

Graywacke @CarolynM @batsy Glad the break works out. I was worried about that when I thought up this schedule. @CarolynM also that‘s great you‘re enjoying them. I am too. Just need a little rejuvenation. @batsy relieved it‘s not just me. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat ah, encouraging! I‘ll start Wednesday or Thursday. 4y

jewright Sorry I‘ve not been able to keep up. This spring is so busy. 4y

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