Whartonbuddyread

Sorry for the late post - it‘s been a morning. 🙄
We seem to be following Martin to a place we were all hoping he wouldn‘t go, and he‘s deluding himself about. What role does Mrs. Sellarshave in this - is she pushing him that way even as she dreads it? And how does Mr. Dobree‘s visit impact Roseand Martin‘s relationship with? #WhartonBuddyRead

Graywacke

Lcsmcat @KathyWheeler @kspenmoll @Leftcoastzen @LitStephanie @llwheeler @Louise @rubyslippersreads @SamAnne @sarahbellum @Sparklemn @Suet624 @TheBookHippie @cindyash 13h

Lcsmcat @mdm139 @graywacke @jewright @AllDebooks @amysisson @Ann_Reads @arubabookwoman @batsy @BookishTrish @CarolynM @catebutler @Catherine_Willoughby @Cathythoughts @Crazeedi @Currey @dabbe @emilyhaldi @IMASLOWREADER 13h

Graywacke Martin is a mess. It‘s an interesting, if frustrating, look at his internal contradictions and inability to see what we can see. Rose is somewhat heroic here, managing and putting up with Martin. Of course there‘s more to that in Rose, prompted as she is by some jealousy. Still, she‘s being way more than reasonable. 10h

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Currey @Lcsmcat We all seem to be having that kind of day! Martin is certainly more aware and working harder at keeping up the delusion regarding his feelings toward Judith. He knows he is being foolish. Mrs Sellars has her own delusions about her relationship with Martin. Martin‘s comment about loving Mrs Sellars the most when he isn‘t with her as he can then provide both sides of the dialogue really summed it up for me. (edited) 10h

Graywacke I‘m of two minds of Martin on Judith. In many ways he is between normal caring and in-love with Judith and he honestly doesn‘t know where his emotions truly are. In many ways he has a father‘s or brother‘s affection. But also he‘s the leering fool he imagined he observed the doctor to be. Clearly his affection for Judith has washed out his love of Rose, but it‘s a different kind of affection. 👇 10h

Graywacke 👆 Since he doesn‘t seem to know what it is, perhaps we can‘t know either. But we probably can know more than him. He‘s a mess. (edited) 10h

Graywacke @Currey Martin‘s way of handling women? He prefers to think for them. Or, her prefers to mute their concerns… ?? 10h

Lcsmcat @Currey We all win those arguments, don‘t we? And as to him loving her most when not with her, I almost used this quote “He knew now how much she loved him—but did he know how much he loved her?” 9h

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I think he‘s convinced that he‘s being avuncular, but because he wants to be convinced. 9h

Leftcoastzen I think Mrs Sellar is tired of all this nonsense. 9h

Leftcoastzen I think though he‘s all over the place with his feelings for Judith & Rose , he seems to really care about the children. Made me ponder people I know who I think would be great parents who never had kids & terrible parents who shouldn‘t have had them! 9h

Graywacke @Leftcoastzen I wonder at how Wharton‘s own childlessness plays in. Martin is discovering how much he really wanted children. Whereas Rose doesn‘t betray emotions of this sort one way or the other. (Is Rose young enough to still have children?) (edited) 8h

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I get the impression Rose is on the edge of being able to have kids, but it‘s just a feeling. I think Wharton is being much kinder to the children than to any of the adults, so you might have a point. 8h

CarolynM Still lagging behind, I‘m afraid. Hopefully I‘ll catch up for the final discussion. 4h

23 likes14 comments

Lcsmcat

The Children | Edith Wharton

We get a little more of the Wharton bite in this Book. She‘s kinder to the children than to their parents. I was reminded of Pauline and her schedule (from Twilight Sleep) in the last section. Still, I don‘t know what to make of Martin. I don‘t think he‘s exactly being honest with himself regarding Judith. Thoughts? #whartonbuddyread

Graywacke

Lcsmcat @KathyWheeler @kspenmoll @Leftcoastzen @LitStephanie @llwheeler @Louise @rubyslippersreads @SamAnne @sarahbellum @Sparklemn @Suet624 @TheBookHippie @cindyash 1w

Currey @Lcsmcat Unlike others, I really thought that Martin would pull himself away from “liking” Judith after Book 1. I just didn‘t read it as that creepy. However, Wharton is clearly leading us to keep questioning his intentions and his motivations. So now I am thinking I read him incorrectly. 1w

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Currey @Lcsmcat The children are more impossible and yet Wharton clearly makes their escape escapade seem totally reasonable given the state of their parents. 1w

Currey @Lcsmcat And unfortunately Mrs Sellars is portrayed as very “staid” and I would have liked for one adult to be quite thoroughly upright AND likable (edited) 1w

Lcsmcat @Currey Yes, I don‘t have much hope for Mrs. Sellers helping anything. She‘s more likely to be a complication. 1w

arubabookwoman i agree that Martin is definitely heading toward creepy (and Mrs Sellars isn't discouraging that). And the parents and their cohorts are being portrayed as acting so badly as to be caricatures, and no longer based in reality. Despite this, I still like the book, and am going along with Wharton for the ride. (I have read this before). 1w

batsy I had some hope in Mrs. Sellars when she meets Judith and says Judith is too young "for her responsibilities" because it's finally an adult seeing the truth but it didn't quite amount to much. I feel bad for these kids. This is a weird book (not a bad thing) but I'm just not sure what I make of it yet. 1w

Lcsmcat @batsy I can‘t figure how Wharton is going to end this one. 1w

Graywacke @batsy “it‘s a weird book” - borderline farce, no? But it hasn‘t crossed that line. The Lodi adults are both caricatures and a playful attack. 1w

Graywacke Goodness, i still like foolish Martin and his manipulation by Judith. @Currey Mrs. Sellars is really disappointing. Why are they engaged if they don‘t like each other, but just have a friendly fondness? (They barely touch each other…or want to) Oh right, Wharton‘s characters don‘t communicate 🙂 1w

Leftcoastzen I think Mrs. Sellers knows it‘s better to not get involved, she‘s “retired “ more or less. She and Martin , are they settling? I too , sense it‘s a question of them not ending up alone instead renewing a passion. Once Martin started advocating for the kids , Judith would see him as a lifeline. Is he too interested in Judith? We shall see. 7d

Leftcoastzen And the parents! They want to see these kids now & then , show them off like little trophies, then put them down letting them fend for themselves, with meager hired help. No wonder the kids cling to each other. 7d

cindyash @Leftcoastzen the parents may be caricatures, but while I think Wharton is having fun with them but I do believe theres a germ of truth in what she writes Ive taught childre of these kind of parents. so I wasnt really surprised

Martin is such an interesting character, you usually dont see men in this time getting involved so much with the children. I wonder if she has a person in mind like that 6d

Leftcoastzen @cindyash I wondered too if Wharton knew a man like that . I keep thinking they are rich , why don‘t they just send them to boarding school, then I think about the stories about negative experiences in boarding school!🤨 6d

batsy @Graywacke Yes, it's playing with the line of farce and social commentary. Hence the Twilight mood seems heightened here, a dash of Fitzgerald, but she dials it down with Martin's inner voice. 6d

Lcsmcat @batsy I like “dash of Fitzgerald “ - very apt. Wharton seems to have turned a corner from criticizing the staid “old New York” to critiquing the newer rich. I agree that it is Martin‘s inner voice that grounds the story and keeps it from being farce. But he‘s also the most fully-realized character, with all the others more or less two dimensional which makes me wonder if she‘s actually doing more of a character study on him than 👇🏻 6d

Lcsmcat 👆🏻 social commentary on the rich - nouveau or otherwise. 6d

Lcsmcat @Leftcoastzen @cindyash I had the boarding school thought too. But the parents don‘t seem to value education enough to even warrant that much effort. 6d

cindyash @Lcsmcat hee really not sure which book it is but one parent was shocked to find that Morroco wasnt in South Africa “well then where is it Id like to know“ 5d

28 likes20 comments

Graywacke

The Children | Edith Wharton

Reading with the #whartonbuddyread Actually, i started a week ago, just never posted.

cindyash Hi, found you. really looking forward to this discussion. Ive finished it, but will not spoil anything.... 2w

Graywacke @cindyash hi. I‘m holding off reading your review until we finish. 🙂 2w

cindyash @Graywacke yeah I was going to delete it but you can probably avoid it. I could put spoiler notice up!
2w

Graywacke @cindyash no need to delete it. I know. 2w

38 likes4 comments

CarolynM

Twilight Sleep | Edith Wharton

pick

#WhartonBuddyRead
Finally finished this one. I enjoyed the satire, particularly Pauline‘s self obsession and pursuit of ways to avoid genuine feeling for anyone else. Lita struck me as an updated Undine Spragg - Hollywood would be exactly the sort of society which would have appealed to her. I wish the ending had been clearer, I would at least like to know why Lita agreed not to divorce.

Lcsmcat, Graywacke

Rissreads That cover is divine! I‘m still to read something by Wharton. I‘ll get there. 2w

batsy Great review. Agree that more clarity re: the ending would have made this more razor sharp. 2w

Graywacke I guess Lita can always change her mind later. Nice post 2w

LeahBergen Great review! 2w

Lcsmcat I‘m with @Graywacke - I don‘t think anything was fixed permanently! 2w

57 likes5 comments

Lcsmcat

The Children | Edith Wharton

It took four chapters before the “nursery tangle” gets untangled, but at last, the cast of the title characters is revealed. What do you make of Judith? Martin? And the parents (when we finally meet them.) Wharton has addressed the neglect of the children of the rich as an aside in previous books, but I don‘t think she‘s going to let the adults off the hook in this one. #whartonbuddyread

Graywacke

Lcsmcat
@mdm139 @graywacke @jewright @AllDebooks @amysisson @Ann_Reads @arubabookwoman @batsy @BookishTrish @CarolynM @catebutler @Catherine_Willoughby @Cathythoughts @Crazeedi @Currey @dabbe @emilyhaldi @IMASLOWREADER 2w

Lcsmcat @KathyWheeler @kspenmoll @Leftcoastzen @LitStephanie @llwheeler @Louise @rubyslippersreads @SamAnne @sarahbellum @Sparklemn @Suet624 @TheBookHippie @cindyash 2w

Lcsmcat Two quotes that I marked: “The Wheaters he knew must have been married nearly twenty years ago; and Cliffe Wheater, in the interval, had made money enough to treat himself to half-a-dozen divorces and remarriages, with all the attendant outlay.” 2w

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Lcsmcat “And yet he was disappointed, for he was already busy at the masculine task of endowing the woman of the moment with every quality which made life interesting to himself.” (Martin of Judith in the church.) 2w

Suet624 I started this and then it got yanked away from me (Hoopla). I was fascinated by the cast of characters and was just getting the hang of them all. Hope to be able to get it back soon 2w

Lcsmcat @Suet624 You almost need a chart, don‘t you? 2w

Suet624 That would definitely be helpful. 😊 2w

Currey @Lcsmcat I am also enjoying Mr Boyne. Because he has a bit of a crush on Judith he sees her maturity until they are in the cathedral where he realizes she isn‘t fully formed intellectually at all. He sees the children as individuals not just a gang and he largely sympathizes with them over the irresponsible adults 2w

arubabookwoman i kept remembering Suzy and Nick in Glimpses of the Moon in the borrowed villa in which the daughter of the wealthy owner was abandoned while she was off on a fling. Wharton here is going to explore further the plight of the children of her wealthy dilettantes. Judith intrigues me. How did she become so mature and commensensical at such a young age, esp. with such parents--none of the younger children seems to have that trait. 2w

arubabookwoman but it is great how Wharton has made each of the children individuals, with distinct personalities, even in the little bit we've seen of them so far. Was anyone else surprised that the young boy Terry was placed in a room with a complete stranger on the boat? And that once reunited with their parents the children were housed in a different hotel? (edited) 2w

Lcsmcat @arubabookwoman I too thought of the little girl in Glimpses of the Moon. 2w

Graywacke Just taking in names and relationships and trying to understand motives and wondering what it would be like being one of these kids cruising around Europe. Wharton seems to be having fun with charm and a maybe more resigned social critique. Martin isn‘t being honest with himself or his motivations. I did think it was funny when the nanny reveals to us that they‘re manipulating Martin. 2w

Leftcoastzen The poor little rich girl/ boy idea comes to mind . The children are worldly in a way because they have been so many places though most would agree the attention & love from parents is so important and totally lacking. One of the kids said something that made me Lol early in the book. Should have written it down. 2w

jewright I‘m sympathizing with poor Terry who just wants a tutor, so he can learn like other boys. I see irresponsible parents every day as a teacher. I‘m not sure if it‘s comforting or discouraging that they‘ve always existed. 2w

Leftcoastzen And to Judith. The family is lucky to have her yet she has no opportunity to have had normal personal experiences as an individual adolescent & teen as she is all about caring for the little ones. 2w

batsy There's a different quality to Wharton's writing here that I find interesting. Can't quite put my finger on it but it's reminding me of British middlebrow fiction (all the Furrowed Middlebrow imprint books :) There's a part of me that's cringing in earnest about Martin's obsession with Judith because of the age gap. Very icky. The part where Judith says she won't have time to read or do anything really because she'll have to care for the children! 2w

batsy @arubabookwoman Yes! Good memory, because I'd forgotten about that until you brought it up 🙂 This does have some similarities in tone and mood to Moon. 2w

Lcsmcat @batsy I‘m struggling to put my finger on the difference in Wharton‘s tone. Less biting maybe? I‘ll have to ponder this more. The potential for a Martin-Judith relationship has me cringing too, but it feels like maybe he‘s moving away from that and realizing how young she really is. 2w

Lcsmcat @jewright Poor Terry! No one recognizes what he has to offer because he isn‘t what they expect him to be. But he‘s so self possessed and aware of what _he_ needs. I really like him. The “foreign” steps make me laugh, Zinnie is harder for me to like, but I‘m trying to keep an open heart. 2w

Lcsmcat @Leftcoastzen Judith has a bad bargain for sure. And you wonder if this kind of childhood leads to the selfish adult behavior. Kind of a “I didn‘t get to do these things as a kid so I‘m going to do them now” idea? 2w

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @batsy - on the writing - the less biting tone - I think much of Wharton‘s writing had ambitious intents - to establish her, to shock NY, to share her experiences, to look back on her history, to look at (and undermine?) her own optimism. But none of that is here. She‘s an established best-selling writer. She has pressed. Here she‘s indulging herself and experimenting on more subtle ways. This is my unedited thinking out loud. 2w

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @batsy on Martin and Judith - we have seen Wharton‘s courtships and they can begin this way, with no intent. No conscious admission of courting by either person. So she‘s playing hard with an improper relationship. Safe on the surface, but readers are thinking about it, whether we want to or not. It‘s weird… And I‘m pretty sure she wants us thinking about it, and to be a little uncomfortable. 2w

Graywacke @arubabookwoman @Leftcoastzen @batsy @Lcsmcat What bothers me most about Judith is that everyone is ok with her fate and role. Terry needs a tutor, but Judith can just be nanny. Well, of course. I don‘t sense much tension there in writer or characters. (And why doesn‘t the nanny, you know, nanny? Shouldn‘t she take charge?) 2w

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Oh she definitely wants us to think about a Martin - Judith relationship! (Thus the quote I posted above.) My question is whether or not Martin will be/become aware enough to leave her alone. 2w

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Judith has her hands full with more than the kids. She‘s got to manage the servants and they‘re taking advantage of the fact that their ostensible employers aren‘t interested in paying attention. And Judith seems resigned to her fate, doesn‘t she? It‘s almost like Terry‘s illness gave him power that none of the others have to just be himself. 2w

Leftcoastzen @Lcsmcat @Graywacke I agree totally! As I read In my brain I‘m yelling the hired help needs to do their jobs!😄poor Judith managing that too. Families can be like that , giving no cares about Judith‘s fate & role. 2w

Leftcoastzen I love how Wharton seems to find a character to feature that has an old association with someone & gets drawn into a hot mess like this. Martin is in over his head . 2w

Lcsmcat @Leftcoastzen Good observation. Wharton does explore “loose ties” in a lot of her fiction. 2w

TheBookHippie I like Judith. I too wondered if or what we are suppose yo be thinking. This feels like being told a story rather than in the story if that makes sense. It seems stage is set but for what? 2w

Lcsmcat @TheBookHippie Interesting that you feel outside of the story. I feel like we‘re sort of in Martin‘s mind, but that he himself isn‘t as aware as he could be. Coming from the “wilderness” he is meant to see through the eyes of an outsider, but he‘s also an insider. 2w

TheBookHippie @Lcsmcat I know -what does that say about me 😅 2w

batsy @Lcsmcat @Graywacke Less biting for sure & I think @TheBookHippie nails it in terms of stage setting. It's early days yet but this first part still feels introductory. We get glimpses of the usual astute Wharton when she allows us into Martin's mind (Though I don't quite like all that I find in there! The idea of the moldable young woman; her innocence and lack of interest in what moves him, but caring for kids animates her. Yeah ok, Martin! 🤢) 2w

batsy @Graywacke Agreed—the adults seem far too comfortable with how much Judith has to take on. 2w

cindyash @arubabookwoman I was so surprised how well she drew those children! Wasnt expecting that somehow, Also showing Boyne to be so caring, . Quite the difference from the parents. Just awful people. 2w

cindyash @Leftcoastzen yeah some one need to remind him the road to hell is paved with good intentions But what a wonderful thing he is doing? good role model for the kids. the parent could take a few lessons from him 2w

Lcsmcat @cindyash She portrays the kids so lovingly in all their individuality that it makes me think Wharton must have known children like them. 2w

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Leftcoastzen

The Children | Edith Wharton

#whartonbuddyread Yay! I finished book 1 ! It is called the children for a reason, there are many children in it!😁Looking forward to the discussion tomorrow. The is the bookstore sticker inside the back cover of this book.

Lcsmcat, Graywacke

LeahBergen Cool! 2w

Lcsmcat That is so cool! 2w

batsy Quite a vast number of children indeed 😂 2w

46 likes3 comments

Leftcoastzen

The Children | Edith Wharton

#whartonbuddyread Here I go! Hopefully will get through book one in time for discussion on the 27th.Found this lovely original edition at a cheap book sale!

Lcsmcat, Graywacke

LeahBergen So pretty! 3w

Graywacke Beautiful. 😍. And you have time 🙂 It‘s not a long section. 3w

Lcsmcat Wow, what a find! 2w

batsy Great find 🤩 2w

48 likes4 comments

LitsyEvents

The Children | Edith Wharton

Via @ Lcmscat

Quick reminder that discussions start next
Saturday! #Whartonbuddyread

40 likes

Lcsmcat

The Children | Edith Wharton

Quick reminder that discussions start next Saturday! #Whartonbuddyread

Graywacke, LitsyEvents

Lcsmcat @KathyWheeler @kspenmoll @Leftcoastzen @LitStephanie @llwheeler @Louise @rubyslippersreads @SamAnne @sarahbellum @Sparklemn @Suet624 @TheBookHippie 3w

Graywacke Ok, ebook acquired. I‘ve started. 3w

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IMASLOWREADER oh cool 3w

CarolynM I‘ll try to join in, but I still haven‘t finished Twilight Sleep 😬 My reading is not what it should be. 3w

batsy I haven't started but will try my best! 3w

Currey @batsy @Lcsmcat Along with Betsy, I have not started but I did note that Book 1 is short. 3w

Lcsmcat @Currey It is short, but so far the characters are intriguing. 3w

TheBookHippie Free copy https://archive.org/details/children0000edit_d4r0 in case anyone needs it! 3w

Lcsmcat @TheBookHippie Thanks! I always forget about them for fiction. (I use them a lot for genealogy resources.) 3w

TheBookHippie @Lcsmcat 🙃 3w

Graywacke @Lcsmcat - please add @cindyash to the tag list. Thanks 3w

Lcsmcat @Graywacke @cindyash Absolutely! 3w

Graywacke @CarolynM i hope you‘re able to enjoy what you‘re reading. Twilight Sleep has a curious and maybe entertaining end. 3w

Currey @batsy Apologies for the autocorrect changing your name to Betsy. When I went to fix it Litsy went down and I gave up. 3w

batsy @Currey No worries at all, it's a username based on a silly nickname friends gave me in school 😆 3w

Graywacke @Lcsmcat hmm. My edition has a Book iv. Is it incorrect or do we need to adjust the schedule? Maybe add a week? 2w

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I‘ll take a look when I get home from work, but I can certainly add another week. 2w

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Yep. Don‘t know how I missed that, but we will add Book 4 on May 18. Good catch! 2w

Graywacke @Lcsmcat Good solution. And glad I‘m not crazy. 🙂 2w

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TheBookHippie

Twilight Sleep | Edith Wharton

pick

Finally finished my #WhartonBuddyRead

I enjoyed this one quite a bit and I hope she becomes a nun 💟.

I very much enjoyed the read and l like the ending non ending. I enjoy Wharton's prose very much, even when it's about vapid people...

I‘d have never read this without the group so thanks all! Sorry I fell so far behind!!

Graywacke

Graywacke Glad you finished and enjoyed it! I like your ending non-ending description (edited) 1mo

TheBookHippie @Graywacke 🙃 1mo

batsy Ha, yes! #NunLife all the way 😆 4w

TheBookHippie @batsy Revenge and peace all in one move. 4w

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