AntonyAndCleopatra

HEY! WE WEREN‘T THE ONLY ONES CONFUSED #SHAKESPEAREREADALONG!!! I feel in much better company now.
@Riveted_Reader_Melissa #StacySchiff #CleopatraALife #Cleopatra #biography #Shakespeare #AntonyAndCleopatra

Riveted_Reader_Melissa So in that sense...based on his sources...Shakespeare wrote it as well as he could. 😂 4y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa from the sounds of it, yeah. The poor guy almost had to just roll with it and hope for the best. 4y

TheBookHippie 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤪 4y

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GingerAntics

Antony & Cleopatra | William Shakespeare

pick

This is between a pick and a so-so for me.

The underlying story of Caesar pulling the strings and his power play is far more interesting than the supposed love story. Both Antony and Cleopatra act like teenagers toward each other. I‘m not entirely convinced they‘re actually in love. She‘s constantly throwing tantrums and he‘s so wishy washy. I couldn‘t really stand either. I was, quite frankly, glad they both died at the end. 👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻

GingerAntics This play frequently gets compared to Romeo & Juliet, but I honestly feel that play is more interesting. I just wanted Cleopatra to stop screaming at everyone and having people beaten for no good reason, and I wanted Antony to grow a bloody pair. This Antony and Cleopatra are far less intriguing than the real A&C. Sorry Shakes. #Shakespeare #AntonyAndCleopatra #shakespearereadalong 4y

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GingerAntics

Antony & Cleopatra | William Shakespeare

Not as impressed with this ending as I usually am with endings to the tragedies. One last tantrum from Cleo before she attempts to kill herself and accidentally kills one of her ladies, then kills herself with some snakes. I suppose you gotta do what you gotta do. I see the parallels with R&J, but still not impressed with either.
Thoughts? Reflections?
#Shakespeare #AntonyAndCleopatra #shakespearereadalong
@merelybookish @graywacke

GingerAntics @readinginthedark @batsy @Lcsmcat @TheBookHippie @Sunraven @Trashcanman @IamIamIam @ladyneverwhere @erzascarletbookgasm @MoonWitch94 @catebutler @CoffeeNBooks @jewright @saresmoore @rabbitprincess @Balibee146 @IndoorDame @kathedron @Mtroiano @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @MrsMalaprop @Gezemice @readordierachel 4y

GingerAntics @Melismatic @Sace @teainthelibrary @Susannah @kristenm @slategreyskies @Panic70 @Carolyn11215 @Alliterati @Kristy_K @Liz_M @Daisey @mhillis @Wife @wanderinglynn @Jess_Read_This @Linsy @MellieAntoinette @Yoshi-and-a-book @mollyrotondo @greenreads 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa It was interesting, even more interesting after I listened to the author of Cleopatra‘s biography the other day....so much of it was wrapped up in politics and storytelling and myth building, which might be it reads weird or over dramatic/over the top to us now. 4y

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Riveted_Reader_Melissa Let me add the link here, just in case anyone else is interested in that... https://youtu.be/2kMaK6oqlrU 4y

Graywacke I‘m currently reading North‘s Plutarch at the back of my Signet edition. I think I liked this act best of the all in the play, or maybe I‘ve adapted to the play. Finally reached the famous line “Antony/ Shall be brought drunken forth, and I shall see/ Some squeaking Cleopatra boy my greatness/ I'th' posture of a whore” (boy being a verb and reference to the boy actors playing women in the bard‘s day). Needs a reread. 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa And yes, I could definitely see the parallels now with R&J, a fake or miscommunication of death, leads to a suicide, and then the other dies to join them.....although in this case it might have been more to avoid the being paraded through Rome part. 🤷‍♀️ 4y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I see it in the immaturity of the relationship as well, but I‘m the minority in that one. I just don‘t see A&C‘s behaviour very mature. If someone acted that way now, I‘d get as far away from them as possible. That is some high school love affair drama right there. 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @GingerAntics Read straight, it‘s annoying and makes her look silly...now through the history eyes I read it as great propaganda...weak silly woman lead mighty Anthony astray and to his death, that will play better in Rome, puts the blame on Cleo instead of Octavius ....and she dies by the symbol of Egypt. And hey, they are both gone, so no one will side with them and either Caesar‘s son or Anthony‘s children leaving the way clear for Octavius. (edited) 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @GingerAntics I think the whole immaturity spin was to make them both diminish and increase Octavius claims. Again, the legend was the propaganda after they were gone. History written by the victors and all that Jazz. 4y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I get the propaganda angle, and I certainly see that. Shakes has written strong women before, rejecting history and his own modern ideas of women and womanhood. I can‘t go as far as looking at this as history, as it‘s nowhere near the truth, I would imagine. It‘s complete propaganda, I would imagine. I look forward to reading about the real Cleopatra in June. 4y

Lcsmcat Moving away from the relationship of A & C, did it strike anyone else that, the character left to sum it up at the end was Caesar? In other tragedies a minor character takes that role. Was this a comment on Caesar? Or just that he is the one that was left? 4y

Melismatic Agree 100% about the propaganda angle — this last act made me actually appreciate her more as this felt calculated to protect her legacy (and meet Antony in the afterlife) as opposed to earlier when she “faked” her death to gauge Antony‘s reaction). 4y

GingerAntics @Lcsmcat that‘s a very good point. Maybe because he was the one left and the one who knew the most “sides” as it were to give a fuller picture? I‘m going to have to think about that now. 4y

CoffeeNBooks This wasn't one of my favorite Shakespeare plays. The relationship between Antony and Cleopatra really annoyed me with all of their drama. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat Was it kind of his game all along - pulling the strings? Is he taking his bow? (edited) 4y

GingerAntics @CoffeeNBooks exactly!!! 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke oh, that‘s an angle on it. That very well could be. He was behind all of it from the beginning. That sounds very plausible. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke That is a fair point. 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke I think that is it, I‘m looking forward to reading Cleopatra‘s biography next month, but the author of it (in the interview I posted above) even hinted that her death MAY have been orchestrated/encouraged by Octavius, she may have been too sympathetic a figure to parade through Rome, and as the mother of Julius Caesar‘s son the tide may not have gone his way. So yes, this whole tale was his, the victor writes the tale, and took his bow

Cleopatra: A Life

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa it‘s all about gaining and maintaining power...in that sense, this play perfectly followed Julius Caesar then. I can‘t wait to read that book now. 4y

mollyrotondo @Graywacke yes! I believe that Octavius was pulling the strings the entire time, but I didn‘t pick up on that until halfway through the play so I definitely think I would have to reread this one. But yes, @Lcsmcat I think he speaks at the end to show that he was the master this entire time. 4y

Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Lcsmcat @GingerAntics @mollyrotondo North‘s Plutarch has this line early on: “he yielded himself to go with Cleopatra into Alexandria, where he spent and lost in childish sports (as a man might say) and idle pastimes the most precious thing a man can spend, as Antiphon saith, and that is, time.” 👇👇 (edited) 4y

Graywacke The implication is that Antony lost it all early on in Alexandria. He lost the time he needed and the rest was up to Octavius. In other words, it‘s over in the first lines of the play. (I should add “maybe” a few times in there) 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke @mollyrotondo that changes the whole play. If Octavius was behind the scenes the whole time, and Antony isn‘t in control of the situation from the beginning, that completely changes the tone of the entire play. I think that‘s probably the case, too. Now I want to reread this play. Crap. 4y

Graywacke @GingerAntics 😂 (I sense I need to reread it, and that I‘ll appreciate more once I‘ve digested the wacky story and can instead think more about the performance and the language.) 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke I do feel like I‘ve been entirely distracted by the madness of A&C and the wacky story (perfect way to describe it). Perhaps it would be clearer another time around. 4y

merelybookish Oh dear, I fell behind. 🙈 But I will announce the schedule for Love's Labour Lost soon! 4y

GingerAntics @merelybookish I know how you feel. The only thing I‘m up to date on is this read. It‘s been a crazy few weeks. 4y

Graywacke From A C Bradley‘s 1909 essay at the back of the Signet edition: “The ﬁrst of living soldiers, an able politician, a most persuasive orator, Antony nevertheless was not born to rule the world. He enjoys being a great man, but he has not the love of rule for rule‘s sake. Power for him is chieﬂy a means to pleasure. The pleasure he wants is so huge that he needs a huge power, but half the world, even a third of it, would suffice. 👇👇 4y

Graywacke He will not pocket wrongs, but he shows not the slightest wish to get rid of his fellow triumvirs and reign alone. He never minded being subordinate to Julius Caesar. By women he is not only attracted but governed; from the effect of Cleopatra‘s taunts we can see that he had been govemed by Fulvia. Nor has he either the patience or the steadfastness of a born ruler. 👇👇 (edited) 4y

Graywacke He contends ﬁtfully and is prone to take the step that is easiest at the moment. This is the reason why he consents to marry Octavia. It seems the shortest way out of an awkward situation. He does not intend even to try to be true to her. He will not think of the distant consequences.” 4y

GingerAntics @Graywacke I agree with all of that. He can‘t see past the here and now and he has an “enough” where Caesar is never happy, even if he ruled the world. He‘s immature by Roman standards. He‘s but a boy, ruled by his passions and destroyed by them. 4y

mollyrotondo @Graywacke I needed more of an explanation for why he marries Octavia. The “easy way out” makes a lot of sense. 4y

Gezemice @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke @GingerAntics I have read that book about Cleopatra (will be re-reading with you) and the main point of the book was how Cleopatra‘s legacy was basically written by male historians blaming her for everything, pretty much, because she was the woman and leading the man astray. Nowadays, this would be called politics. She certainly used her female charms to her advantage - you use what you got. 4y

Gezemice @Graywacke @GingerAntics I think that quote by Plutarch sums it up. It was in Antony‘s nature to seek pleasure and not seek power for its own sake. It was his own decision to idle his advantage away. There is no need to blame Cleopatra for Antony‘s decisions and idleness. She was a shrewd politician and it is unlikely she would have counselled him to waste an advantage. 4y

Gezemice I just finished the play and was not impressed with the last act. The previous two were so long and so much happened, and this one was just drawn out. Yes, Cleopatra deserved a last grandstand and dying like a queen. But I did not see the point of the idle talks about her valuables and a bunch of just busy-busy discussion of details. It would have been better with half the act cut. 4y

Gezemice @GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa I am not sure what you mean by immature relationship. My point about maturity was that they both had a long life, multiple spouses, children, and were emperors in their own right, thus making their relationship wholly different from that of young lover‘s first love. Much jealousy was due to political maneuvering, that does not happen in most other middle-aged couples. 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Gezemice I meant that Octavius might have wanted Anthony portrayed as immature, ie partying in Egypt while wasting time, making him look less competent than Octavius who was younger, but came out looking more mature by comparison. I meant that Octavius might have sown a lot of rumor & propaganda to make himself seem more mature & Anthony look more of the party pretty boy frolicking in Egypt to solidify his eventual takeover of all 3 parts of ⤵️ 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ... of Rome. I don‘t think it‘s an accident that Anthony, after helping Octavius fight Julius Caesar‘s murderers, was sent off to Egypt....or I should say assigned Egypt as his section to rule. It kept him further away from Rome, gave him less chance at those powerful tide-turning orations of the last play, it gave Octavius room to plan... and it wasn‘t just Anthony that he took down in this play, the other third of their triumvirate fell too. (edited) 4y

GingerAntics @Gezemice I can‘t speak for @Riveted_Reader_Melissa but my point all along in calling them both immature and their relationship immature is due to their behaviour. They act like teenagers. They are most certainly not acting like adults. You couldn‘t pay me to date a man who acts the way he does. I wouldn‘t be friends with a woman who acts like she does. Obviously, I‘m talking about the characters, not the actual people. 4y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa that‘s very true. It seems, in hind sight, that this is a play all about Octavius and his big power grab, under the guise of a lust story (I can‘t even really see it as genuine love). It‘s a power play in 5 acts. 4y

Gezemice @Riveted_Reader_Melissa Oh I definitely agree that Octavius was the brains of the triumvirate. It is no accident that he ended up being Augustus. Antony (and perhaps Lepidus, I am not sure) were soldiers, great generals. Octavian was a politician, and a great administrator. He had the most time and took it to prepare. You are right, he wanted to send Antony to Egypt. He kept Rome, the heart of the empire. 4y

GingerAntics @Gezemice the last two acts really were long. This one was a bit of a let down, but it did seem unnecessary in length. All the posturing with Octavius (“here, have all my stuff” “I don‘t want your stuff”) all just to kill herself and accidentally taking one of her ladies with her. Eh. The redeeming quality of this play for me was the underlying/hidden power play. 4y

Gezemice @GingerAntics I am not sure what you mean by “how they act”. Getting drunk? Cheating? Marrying another woman for political advantage? Fighting? Jealosy? Yeah, those things they do. I guess we call different things immature. They certainly do not have a healthy relationship, but they keep returning to each other throughout the years. And they respect and clearly love each other, even after many years and many fights. 4y

Gezemice @GingerAntics This play is definitely about power and playing politics. The love theme is more of a sub-plot. It is all about Ceasar staying level-headed and pulling all the strings in the background while the rest waste their advantage. Then - pounce! Ceasar wins! And the rest make a desperate move to rescue their honor the Roman way. 4y

erzascarletbookgasm How interesting, the possibility that Octavius has been pulling the strings from the beginning! I have been focusing too much on Cleo & Antony‘s characters and love affair! 4y

erzascarletbookgasm I know the story of A&C -the famous love affair, has been written/created many times but why Shakespeare wrote Cleo‘s character as so immature?! Now I‘m interested to read the book recommended by @Riveted_Reader_Melissa 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @erzascarletbookgasm If you are interested a bunch of us are going to read it as a group read in June, feel free to join us. From what the author said in the interview I posted (way up on this thread I posted the link). Cleopatra was not immature in reality, she was quite strategic and smart, but her “history” was written about 100 years after her death, and Shakespeare borrowed a lot from that history. And that history was written by the... (edited) 4y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ...winning Romans. Her interview, and I‘m hoping the book goes into more detail, says a lot of this femme fatale sexpot personality was part of the myth created for her, it suited their narrative for her to have ruled and almost won by being pretty than by being an educated and strategic woman. I‘ll see when I read it in June. (edited) 4y

GingerAntics @Gezemice I‘m not sure they do genuinely love each other (the characters, not the people). It seems to be of convenience. He loves her when he feels it‘s good for him. She throws tantrums when she doesn‘t get her way. That‘s not how mature adults behave. I‘m sorry. It‘s just not. 4y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa Everything outside of Shakespeare I‘ve read about Cleo has portrayed her as a strong, independent woman. That is definitely NOT the feeling you get from her in this play. (edited) 4y

MoonWitch94 This is the only version of the character of Cleopatra that I cannot deal with. So incredibly annoying & childish. As someone else commented, feels like total propaganda against women in power. I have the book by Stacy as high, but have never read it. I‘m thinking I might start that soon. This was NOT one of my fave works from The Bard, and while I‘m glad to have read it, I‘m glad it‘s done. 🤣😂 Which play is next???

Cleopatra: A Life

GingerAntics @MoonWitch94 Love Labour‘s Lost is next. A few of us are actually doing a group read of that book in June. You can join us if you want. I‘m beginning to lose track of who all is joining us now. @TheBookHippie @Riveted_Reader_Melissa who‘s all in the group now? lol 4y

MoonWitch94 @GingerAntics yes, that would be great! Would love to join. 😍 And yay to Love Labour‘s Lost!!!!!! 4y

GingerAntics @MoonWitch94 I‘ve seen a very funny production of LLL. They really embraced the comedy aspect of it. I‘m looking forward to reading it for the first time. 4y

TheBookHippie I can‘t remember 🤣🤦🏽‍♀️ who is all in Cleo group but I‘m ready!!! My initial thoughts are R & J is middle school A & C are high school . Medusa is cool with snakes ..C not so much! It was a lot of diva drama 🤣🤣😫 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie high school how? My high school could barely handle Julius Caesar. God that was painful. I far preferred R&J and MacBeth in junior high. 4y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics haha I meant the characters actions 🤣 I think of cleopatra way more mature and feminist . Not like in this play. I‘m anxious to read the Cleopatra book. (edited) 4y

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie oh, I was having horrible visions of trying to read this in high school for a minute there. I‘ll agree they act like high schoolers in this play. I feel like R&J do as well, though. I don‘t really see any difference in their behaviour. The real Cleo is far more self possessed and mature. I‘m sorry Shakes chose not to write another strong woman in this play. 4y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics I feel the same way -lost opportunity ! 4y

mollyrotondo @GingerAntics do you know when and where more performances of Antony and Cleopatra are being streamed soon? 4y

GingerAntics @mollyrotondo I have this one from Shakespeare & Company. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CT0sy42RHA8 I know there was at least one other available about now, but I need to go back in our conversations and figure out who is was from. 4y

mollyrotondo @GingerAntics thank you! 4y

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GingerAntics

Antony & Cleopatra | William Shakespeare

Another act that‘s all over the place. Antony is dead. I feel this is fitting for his behaviour in this play.
#Shakespeare #AntonyAndCleopatra #shakespearereadalong @merelybookish @graywacke

Melismatic Same honestly. I had whiplash from how quickly things shifted in this Act. 5y

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Graywacke @Melismatic 😂 5y

Graywacke All in bits and pieces. Some great lines, but hard to follow the rapidly changing scenes. It does, iirc, follow Plutarch. 5y

Graywacke I thought this was interesting, the plays leading up to A&C:

Othello (1604)
Measure for Measure (1604)
All's Well That Ends Well (1603-06)
Timon of Athens (1604-06)
King Lear (1605-06)
Macbeth (1606)
Antony and Cleopatra (1606-07) (edited) 5y

jewright This act does remind me of Romeo and Juliet a little. Cleopatra hides in a tomb and Antony stabs himself. 5y

Graywacke We have given this one a hard time, but it seems the bard was on a consistent roll. I can‘t help wondering why I‘m struggling with this one, and what I‘m missing. 5y

Graywacke @jewright i haven‘t read R&J since high school. I would like to compare these two - opposite ends of his career, in a sense. 5y

mollyrotondo I thought it was interesting that we kept getting teased about Antony‘s death and were made to think he was going to lose and be defeated by Caesar. But he was actually winning. It was Cleopatra‘s betrayal that led to his death and defeat. And I have a question: Did Cleopatra really betray Antony? 5y

Lcsmcat @jewright Me too! They‘re all acting like teenagers. 5y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Have you watched the National Theatre production? Watching it is easier than reading. All the quick scene changes are kind of like watching an action movie. There‘s not a lot of dialogue going on, but people are running around everywhere. 5y

GingerAntics @Graywacke I wouldn‘t have thought of looking at this plan that way, but that certainly gives a perspective and sort of explains things a bit. 5y

GingerAntics @mollyrotondo I‘m wondering that too. Seemingly, her alliances change constantly. That alone could give a person whiplash. The reason she gave of why she told Antony she was dead don‘t really make sense. Is she hoping to be the “victor” in that she took down Antony? 5y

Gezemice I am still on act 3... way too much going on, I thought I was catching up! 5y

GingerAntics @Gezemice it‘s okay. It‘s a crazy time right now. I think I just lucked out in getting some time to read this act. These are absolutely epically long acts that have so much going on. 5y

mollyrotondo @Lcsmcat yes I agree! I watched the whole play and it made so much more sense visually. The banter worked so much better because I did not understand those scenes while reading. This is definitely a play that was meant to be watched. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @jewright Yes, I can see why someone said last week that they had seen them taught together....was that you? 5y

mollyrotondo @GingerAntics I was thinking that her wanting Antony to think she was dead was just her playing those juvenile games to see if he loves her not. Even at a crucial time of war she‘s still playing love games. But the ships leaving Antony‘s fight was confusing because I wasn‘t sure if her men were betraying her and Antony or Cleopatra gave that order 5y

mhillis Everything started to come together in this act. It was more like what I was expecting! For me, it was easier to understand who was talking in each scene by watching the play. 5y

jewright @Riveted_Reader_Melissa No, but I read that comment last week, and this week I can really see why. @Graywacke I love R&J. It‘s my favorite play, and it‘s, in my opinion, much, much better than this one. It might be part nostalgia on my part, but R&J was what made me fall in love with Shakespeare, and it‘s always remained my favorite. 5y

Graywacke @jewright R&J is you‘re favorite! Taking note of that. I have every intention of reading it as an adult so that I actually remember it. (Can‘t recall if I missed this group‘s read of R&J. I joined about a year in.) 5y

Gezemice Ok, I have now read Act IV. I liked it a lot more than III - while a lot happened here, too, they were all in the same two days and the main characters had lots of interactions. Antony is so changeable - when luck is with him, he loves Cleopatra, when it is not, he blames her. He wants to kill her but when he hears she is dead, he kills himself. What comes through is that they truly love each other. 5y

Gezemice @mollyrotondo @GingerAntics The play is unclear on whether she betrayed Anthony, probably on purpose, because I think Shakespeare‘s main point here is Antony‘s reaction: he just assumes she did, because he blames her for all his bad decisions and bad luck. I don‘t think she did, however, from her reaction, also because Antony was winning the day before. 5y

Gezemice @Graywacke @jewright I did not pick up on that, but what a great observation! Indeed, he evokes Romeo when he kills himself, thinking that Cleopatra is dead. On the orher hand, Romeo never wanted to kill Juliet... so I would say this is on Antony. 5y

Gezemice @Lcsmcat I actually thought they acted like a mature couple that went through a lot. A lot of fighting and making up, blaming, threats, but after all they still love each other and can‘t live without the other. 5y

TheBookHippie @Graywacke I feel the same way. I‘ve reread more passages in this one than usual ... I am now just reading it slower. Cleo is some game player I need to read more about her to understand this all I think . I too think maybe rereading R & J without having to teach small sections of it would help me here. This reminds me of high schoolers or middle school drama! I plan to sit with it tomorrow and catch up! 5y

Graywacke @Gezemice @jewright at best, they are a jaded mockery of innocent love in R&J. 🙂 And @mollyrotondo @GingerAntics I don‘t think she betrayed MA, I think she was completely dependent in his success. When he tells her to surrender to Octavius and “seek your honour, with your safety,” she responds, “they do not go together.” (edited) 5y

Gezemice @Graywacke Yes, she was delendent on Mark Antony. She knew that Octavius wanted to annex Egypt. Mark Antony left her to be queen. She did not want to be Rome‘s servant. 5y

Gezemice @Graywacke I don‘t think it is jaded mockery. Rather, complicated love of adults who had complicated lives. Plus, we have a power struggle between a queen and an emperor. Kind of hard to have innocent love when both have a long spousal and political history. Romeo and Juliet could be also taken as a foolish romance of hormon crazed teenagers who can‘t wait. Antony and Cleo waited a LOT. 5y

Graywacke @Gezemice 🙂 R&J definitely a little hormonal...but they were sincere. I never felt A&C were straight with each other. There was always a strong aspect of manipulation in their relationship, and always an uncertainty about their true feelings, that the expedient path was more important. 5y

GingerAntics @Gezemice the notion of “teenagers” didn‘t exist back then. You were a child until you could procreate, then you were an adult and could be married. They were possibly hormonal, most new relationships are. @Graywacke as far as R&J being sincere, I don‘t know about that. Romeo can‘t get Rosaline out of his head, then suddenly it‘s all about Juliet. I agree A&C have never been honest with each other. I think both couples believe they are sincere. 5y

Gezemice @Graywacke @GingerAntics I mostly meant that we can also look at R&J in a jaded way if we want to. The more I think about it, I see a development of relationship parallel to where Shakespeare was in his life. R&J is about young and crazy love; Antony and Cleopatra is about a mature love that has many complications. R&J know nothing of life; A&C know too much. R&J is tragic because they have not lived yet; A&C because the life they lived. (edited) 5y

Graywacke @Gezemice i love that. Something to take home and think about, so to speak. 5y

MoonWitch94 @Gezemice I love that⬆️ and totally agree. I‘m the one that brought up teaching the plays together. I have a friend who frequently does that in her HS Honors English course she teaches. I‘ve seen articles from RSC discussing these comparisons, too. 4y

MoonWitch94 I haven‘t caught up yet...it‘s been a busy week. But I will do so soon. Can‘t wait to hop on here & discus with you all ☺️ 4y

MoonWitch94 https://www.bookdepository.com/Romeo-Juliet-vs-Antony-Cleopatra-Concepts-Love-Ro... Someone wrote a whole book about the comparisons! 4y

Gezemice @MoonWitch94 @Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa Thank you! Sounds like a great course. I think it is pretty clear why R&J is taught in a regular high school class and not A&C: R&J is pretty much all about the young lovers, there are no historical backgrounds, the play is much more linear and more relatable to young readers. In A&C love is just one of many themes; R&J focuses on it. 4y

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GingerAntics

Antony & Cleopatra | William Shakespeare

HAPPY MOTHER‘S DAY TO ALL THE MOTHERS IN OUR LITTLE GROUP!!!
A long and intense act. There is war. There is the return of a bride, and a return to Egypt. I was, oddly, unsure Cleo was happy to see Tony. Maybe it‘s because I‘m sleep deprived and stressed, but this was a very odd act. Thoughts?
#Shakespeare #AntonyAndCleopatra #shakespearereadalong @merelybookish @graywacke

Riveted_Reader_Melissa I agree, definitely a lot going on. He sent Octavia back to explain his position, but then ran off to Cleo as soon as she left, or maybe that was the same gossip and stories continuing, but now Octavia believed them too. Then they go to war, Cleo flees, who knows why, and Mark follows her...then he gets a second wind after and decides to go once more into the breach of war, but hey...let‘s party first?🤷‍♀️ 5y

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mollyrotondo Is anyone else hating Caesar right now too? At first I felt bad for him because he was the only one trying to keep Rome together while Antony is in Egypt partying and Lepidus is just a heel. But now he seems like a real jerk. He pulls the same thing on Lepidus as he did to Antony earlier in the play saying Lepidus refused to send over some of his army to help fight Pompey. And then takes his share and puts him in jail. I don‘t trust him now 5y

Graywacke @mollyrotondo he‘s ruthlessly plotting at every step. In character. 5y

GingerAntics @mollyrotondo I don‘t think I ever trusted him, but I think I have a strict “don‘t even trust a Caesar” policy. 5y

mollyrotondo @GingerAntics yeah I guess I have to keep reminding myself of that haha 5y

mollyrotondo @Graywacke uhh he seems to have such an agenda now. I wasn‘t picking up on it as much in the beginning. But I see it now 5y

Graywacke So much plot. And 13 scenes. Phew. It‘s tough, in text, to take all these scene changes in. But Enobarbus continues to have great lines. “the loyalty well held to fools does make / Our faith mere folly.” 5y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa right? That last minute party. It‘s so odd. I feel like I spent half the act going “really? Is this a good time?” 🤷🏼‍♀️ 5y

GingerAntics @Graywacke yeah, I‘m really looking forward to seeing this play performed. I didn‘t have time the other week to watch that first one. Luckily there are two others toward the end of our read that I can see. I feel like this would make more sense visually. 5y

Daisey I agree that this act seems to be kind of scattered and somehow not as clear about what‘s happening. I had to go back and reread the flight from battle to see if I missed any explanation. Also, like @Graywacke, I think Enobarbus has some really great lines. 5y

MoonWitch94 This is one of the handful of The Bard‘s plays I haven‘t read previously (English Lit major here 🙋🏻‍♀️) and I understand why it‘s often overlooked in a Shakespeare curriculum. This Act alone is probably the reason 🤣😂 It is so busy & almost has a manic feel. I‘m a bit overwhelmed. And I Absolutely HATE Ceasar! I agree with @GingerAntics that I am looking forward to seeing this on stage. 5y

Melismatic Agree @Graywacke - Enobarbus is the most likeable to me too - his asides hold a lot of weight. I can‘t decide who is more pitiful, Tony or Cleo but Tony really let his coward flag fly in this act. 5y

mhillis Glad to hear I‘m not the only one who felt confused by this act! After reading, I watched Acts 1-3 and that was very helpful! 5y

GingerAntics @MoonWitch94 that‘s a really good way to put it: manic. That is EXACTLY how it felt. 5y

GingerAntics @MoonWitch94 that‘s a really good way to put it: manic. That is EXACTLY how it felt. I can‘t imagine trying to teach this act. Sheesh. @mhillis confirms it‘s clearer when watched. 5y

MoonWitch94 @GingerAntics Right?!?! This is not a shining example of who Shakespeare is as a playwright and it would be difficult to teach. But that being said, I am enjoying this one tremendously. 5y

GingerAntics @MoonWitch94 maybe this would be a better play to study in a theatre class...or even a film class. 5y

Graywacke @MoonWitch94 i had no idea it was an overlooked play. Interesting. 5y

MoonWitch94 @Graywacke As far as I‘ve experienced, and peers of mine in theatre/English lit circles. In introductory Shakespeare Lit classes, it‘s usually not too popular. A friend of mine teaches it in a comparative theatre class, where they study Romeo & Juliet at the same time. It‘s an interesting concept, especially since it‘s a High School class. 5y

GingerAntics @MoonWitch94 @Graywacke that‘s interesting, teaching it in high school and opposite R&J. I‘m going to have to think about how they parallel. I was expecting it to parallel a lot more than it does, from what I‘d read. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @GingerAntics I‘m thinking it was a ‘might as well party and live it up‘ because this is our last night on earth. (edited) 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke It was a lot of scenes, more than usual even for skipping around on a battlefield. Having read some of his other battles in other plays now, I was kind of surprised he put all of it in one act with the before battle setup and after battle consequences. This is one of those times I remember that we aren‘t exactly sure all of Shakespeare‘s plays were written by the same person...and with this play I can where some of that debate might 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ...come from. It feels very different from just the previous play. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa I highlighted this line, which is also Enobarbus “To be furious, Is to be frighted out of fear” 5y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa 🤣😂🤣 I like that mental image. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Melismatic I pity Cleo more. He got remarried, sent his new wife home to clean up the rumors, and then sucked Cleo into a war with Rome. I‘m not sure how much of it was all warmongering rumors by Octavius, but really he either should have gone with Octavia or kept her with him by his side because she could have vouched for him if he wasn‘t plotting against her brother.🤷‍♀️. He made some bad choices, and pooled Cleo right into it. 5y

Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa makes you wonder what was behind the structure of this play vs Julius Caesar with its crisp pace and refined language. Here, it‘s seems like there is room to refine it. But also the hectic structure emphasizes the hectic Cleo. It‘s a male-centric perspective on different types of females - tough Fulvia, loyal obedient Octavia and the wild, untamable, irresistible, powerful, self-destructive force that is Cleo. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke And yet all three have their lives turned upside down and ruined for men that don‘t really care about them too much. Fulvia wages war for Anthony, for him or to force him home, he shrugs over her death; Octavia weds Anthony because her brother asked her to, then goes back to Rome because Anthony asks her to...I doubt either appreciate her loyalty or sacrifice, and Cleopatra loves Caesar, he dies, beguiles and loves Anthony, he leaves 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa ...and remarries, then returns and needs her navy for a war. It‘s a great male perspective on different types of females...but they are all treated as plot shifters. 5y

Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa yes, they‘re pawns in the game, at whims of the more powerful men and their needs, and mistakes. The bard, writing after his own queen has passed, does not seem particularly sympathetic to them. (edited) 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke Agreed, considering that he lived and wrote through a powerful Queen‘s reign, and saw other Queens on the world stage, you‘d have thought Cleo would have been written with more depth...even as a history. Maybe the fact that he wrote her as manipulative and attention obsessed had as much to do with his opinion of Queens in general as Cleopatra in particular. 5y

Graywacke @Riveted_Reader_Melissa an interesting thought game. Which is most like Elizabeth? (I would say Fulvia) And what other living queens might he have in mind (if any)? 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke Elizabeth was also an unmarried queen, the reputed Virgin Queen, but she also had circling admirers who fell in and out of favor and who she played for her favor...which could be considered Cleo-like as well. 😳 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa Fulvia maybe Mary, a warring counterpoint to Elizabeth. Mary (Elizabeth‘s sister/Bloody Mary), not the other Mary. **Had to edit this, to many Mary‘s. (edited) 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa And on that vein, Octavia would have to be Jane Grey I guess.... obedient, loyal, and it got her not much in the end. Nine days as queen I think, about as long as Octavia‘s marriage. 🤪 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke Thanks, I was thinking Queens generally and Cleo‘s portrayal, but that was a fun thought experiment...there may be a germ of thought that could be the basis for somebodies thesis in this. If so, run with it, and let us know what you dig up. 🧐 5y

batsy I lost my mind during this Act. I went from "wha-" "wha-" "wha-" "WHAT" at every change of scene. Too many scenes! Dial it down, Shakesy! Lol. @MoonWitch94 Manic sums it up perfectly! It sounds like I'm not enjoying the play, but I am drawn to its weird, unhinged energy. Once again the underlying tensions feel very much like contemporary life. 5y

batsy @Graywacke I've grown very fond of Enobarbus. I loved it when Cleo asks, "What shall we do, Enobarbus?" and he says, "Think, and die." The brevity, wit, and truth in that! 5y

erzascarletbookgasm I wonder if Cleo is really going to betray Antony when Octavius sent his messenger to Cleo. I‘m a bit confused with her in this Act. First she was happy to hear Antony‘s wife is not as attractive as her. Then she insisted to go to battle but she fled in the midst of it. 5y

erzascarletbookgasm @Graywacke Enobarbus really stands out..he seem to make some good observations on situations and is not afraid to speak out. 5y

GingerAntics @erzascarletbookgasm I‘m confused with her, too. It seems she‘s playing both sides at the moment, so her feelings can‘t be too strong for him, now can they? 5y

MoonWitch94 @batsy Absolutely....it‘s manic—but enjoyable in a strange unhinged way. 5y

Graywacke @batsy @erzascarletbookgasm i started watching the NT performance last night (I think it‘s available through Wednesday??). Honestly, I wasn‘t impressed. Ralph Fiennes as Antony is not so great. Some other misses too, IMO. Cleopatra, however is very good and it‘s helpful to see how she performs the role. But Enobarbus is terrific. (edited) 5y

GingerAntics @Graywacke sounds like I‘m going to hold out for one of the others a little later. 5y

Gezemice So I thought I was caught ip but it turned out I was only on Act III. It seemed like three acts to me! So much exposition and stuff happening, I was losing track. When finally we return to Cleopatra‘s palace, we have some character development. Mainly, Antony is stark mad, abnd can‘t you just see Cleo shutting up and waiting for him to finish? As fas as the party, it totally made sense to me. Last chance to have fun. 5y

Gezemice @GingerAntics I was also wondering how a theater deals with all these scene changes. 5y

Gezemice @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Graywacke I have read Cleopatra: A Life a while ago and as far as I recall the last lost battle of Anthony was entirely his fault. He had a large army and full advantage but idled for six months, getting his troops demoralized, letting Ceasar group his troops and choose his battles. And Cleopatra was with him for a while and her presence boosted morale for a while. Of course everyone blamed her after the fact. 5y

GingerAntics @Gezemice it does seem that whenever Cleo gets going, she doesn‘t stop for a while. Then again, Antony‘s got quite a few speeches. 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Gezemice so as always...blame the woman. 😂 Sad that that is the true tale as old as time. 5y

Gezemice @GingerAntics Yeah she does that but I meant the scene at the end of Act 3 he just blames her for everything, until he blows over and decides he is going to be the hero again and have a party with Cleo. 5y

Gezemice @Riveted_Reader_Melissa Yeah, that book was mostly about how historians have been giving Cleo a bad rap mainly because she was a powerful woman. From what I gathered, if she was a man and was allowed to lead those troops herself, things might have turned out different. I would have to go re-read it though.

Cleopatra: A Life

GingerAntics @Gezemice neither one of them is very loyal. We‘re actually planning to read Cleopatra: A Life in June. 5y

Gezemice @GingerAntics Oh, really? I have been absent... but I would be up for a re-read! 5y

GingerAntics @Gezemice I don‘t see why you couldn‘t join us. 5y

Gezemice @GingerAntics Great! Can you tag me for the thread? 5y

GingerAntics @Riveted_Reader_Melissa @TheBookHippie it looks like @Gezemice wants to join us for the Cleopatra read. 5y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics yay!! 5y

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics my copy is somewhere in mail land 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @GingerAntics Sounds great! 5y

Riveted_Reader_Melissa @Gezemice great to have you join us! 5y

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GingerAntics

Antony & Cleopatra | William Shakespeare

Very odd moment of the act here...especially since neither seem to have actually done that yet.
#Shakespeare #AntonyAndCleopatra #shakespearereadalong

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GingerAntics

Antony & Cleopatra | William Shakespeare

“The wounded chance of Antony.” I don‘t know why, but I like the way that sounds.
#Shakespeare #AntonyAndCleopatra #shakespearereadalong

8 likes

GingerAntics

Antony & Cleopatra | William Shakespeare

Almost forgot about this. National Theatre (UK) is broadcasting their production of A&C on Thursday. @Graywacke found this for us. It‘s YouTube, so I imagine it will be available after the broadcast as well. I‘m excited to see a stage interpretation of this. There are 2 more productions that will be available about the time we finish reading, too. This one is available this week, though.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lWc6_aCTqI0&feature=youtu.be

GingerAntics #Shakespeare #AntonyAndCleopatra #shakespearereadalong @merelybookish @graywacke 5y

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TheBookHippie Ooooo!!! 5y

mollyrotondo Thank you @GingerAntics and @Graywacke 5y

mom2bugnbee My understanding is that these are available for a week. Frankenstein is up right now. ☺ 5y

GingerAntics @mom2bugnbee oh thanks! Good to know. I may have to go check out Frankenstein while I can. 5y

MoonWitch94 Ohhhh nice! Can‘t wait! 5y

mhillis I‘m looking forward to this!! 5y

batsy @mom2bugnbee I took note of the dates and still forgot about Frankenstein! Thanks for letting us know it's still up 👍🏽 5y

Lcsmcat Thank for sharing! 5y

Graywacke @GingerAntics thanks! And, for everyone, yes, NT is broadcasting one play a week, just for that week. 5y

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GingerAntics

Antony & Cleopatra | William Shakespeare

Shakes can always write a good insult. If it wasn‘t Cleo acting like a spoiled little princess instead of a queen.
#Shakespeare #AntonyAndCleopatra #shakespearereadalong

TheBookHippie 🤣🤣🤣 5y

11 likes1 comment

GingerAntics

Antony & Cleopatra | William Shakespeare

Well, Antony can‘t say he wasn‘t warned.
#Shakespeare #AntonyAndCleopatra #shakespearereadalong

batsy Yup! I'm just screaming LISTEN TO THE SOOTHSAYERS, FFS at this point 🤣 5y

GingerAntics @batsy isn‘t that how it always is?! Those poor soothsayers can‘t get anyone to listen. I wonder if it‘s the ides of March guy. 5y

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