homerinalbania

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I‘ve wanted to read Kadare for a while. An off-site conversation about the oral tradition behind Homer led me to finally read one of his novels with a Litsy buddyread. #homerinalbania

It‘s a novel on Harvard scholars bringing their first tape recorder to the Albanian highlands to record and study traditional saga singers, their minds on Homer. But it begins so strangely, and then does lots of oddball fun stuff. A strangely terrific little novel.

AnnR, salderson107

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Graywacke

The File on H. | Ismail Kadare

The File on H. - last discussion. #homerinalbania

This finishes our book. I got nervous thinking up discussion starters and decided I‘ll put them in the comments with a spoiler cover. (But no other comments should need spoiler cover.) But I‘m curious what you all thought, if you enjoyed it or were disappointed.

AnnR, salderson107

Graywacke Catastrophe. The book ends where it maybe always hinted it would end. Did you see it coming? If not, what was your reaction? Poor Bill and Max. And poor us for the loss. And poor Albanian with spies that don‘t help anyone, well, except maybe Daisy. 2y

Graywacke One thing I noticed in these last chapters is the moment of hope - when Bill gets treatment for his glaucoma. The itself gives us just a hint of these songs they recorded, enough to get our imagination going, but not enough to get familiar with their reality. Like the hope, it‘s there, a window, and then snuffed out. 2y

Graywacke No other comments need a spoiler flag. 2y

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AnnR Minor spoilers ahead....I kinda had a suspicion things were going to go badly when the monk was introduced into the story. Since there really isn't an absolute 'answer' to the whole Homer conundrum, this seemed like an apt way to end things. I could have done without the Daisy related drama, at least the part that required a trip to the doctor. Overall, I really enjoyed the story though. ⬇⬇⬇ (edited) 2y

AnnR Before I forget, Graywacke, I want to thank you for your wonderfully informative discussion posts. I really did learn a lot about Albania, the surrounding regions and their epic traditions. Also, Sarah, thanks for your educational and interesting additions to the discussion. Even though initially I thought the book sounded a little odd, I really enjoyed this buddy read and the story. Well done, both of you!
2y

AnnR @Graywacke Btw, love the pic! Perfect choice. 👍🎵🙂 2y

Graywacke @Ann_Reads I‘m glad you enjoyed. I found it a playful fun novel. The more Bill worshipped the tape recorder the more I felt it had to be doomed. And then Kadare doesn‘t mess with history and Milman Parry‘s legacy 🙂 2y

Graywacke @Ann_Reads i like your idea the the ending is in tune with the unanswerable Homer conundrum. 2y

salderson107 I thought it was more fun in the last two thirds, once i understood what it was about for sure! 2y

Graywacke @salderson107 yay. I really enjoyed it too! I would read more Kadare without hesitating. 2y

salderson107 I especially enjoyed the foreshadowing with the monkey. When I was reading the monk's description he went from kindly/jolly to evil in this wonderful description. I imagined his face twisting into a look of pure evil for a split second! That description creeped me out, and I just knew the monk was bad news 2y

Graywacke @salderson107 the monk was something. He‘s a terrific villain. (Part of me is concerned about a Serbian being the ultimate villain in a book by an Albanian. But he was a really good villain.) 2y

salderson107 He was! And Kadere wrote him so well! I also think that Daisy was meant to make the ridiculous behaviors of the government/governor stand out. 2y

Graywacke @salderson107 @Ann_Reads thanks all for joining, getting me to finally read Kadare, and for making this little book feel bigger and a lot more fun. I really enjoyed all our discussions. (edited) 2y

salderson107 @Graywacke @Ann_Reads thank you! This was a lot of fun! I'm glad I read a book that was different than what I usually read 2y

salderson107 @Graywacke @Ann_Reads I really enjoyed talking about the books as well! 2y

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Graywacke

The File on H. | Ismail Kadare

The File on H. : Chapters 4-8(second discussion)

“…as if to reward them for their perseverance, it seemed, the mountains were presenting them with living beings, who were walked towards them”

And so the highlanders and rhapsodes of the Accursed Mountains are discovered and recorded. And we‘re out of the farce and into this highland culture, from this academic perspective. What did you think of this section?

Some references in the comments.

AnnR, salderson107

Graywacke The Accursed Mountains

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zPa4pBloyOY 2y

Graywacke Slavic video of a singer, circa 1930‘s (?)

https://youtu.be/jtx9w5U44Q4 2y

Graywacke A modern Albanian performance, with translation: Kosovo | The Legendary Epic of Kosovo | Isa Elezi-Lekgjekaj | The Song of Halil‘s Wedding (vv 1-20) https://youtu.be/yKBlQqn9aB0
2y

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Graywacke I really enjoyed this section. The highlanders coming out of the mist like gods or ghosts provided for me a wonderful switch on the what the book is doing. From strained satire to something higher. Anyway I enjoyed it. I‘m curious why the 1st singer was so ill on returning. (edited) 2y

Graywacke The pictures I posted are all of iffy sources. They might be early 20th century Albanian highlanders with wingtip shoulder padding, which is what I googled, or maybe not. 2y

AnnR I need to watch all your posted YouTube videos. Thanks for adding the links. Interesting pictures also. It looks like the highlanders had a rough life, given the environmental and political conditions.

Actually, I thought it was was easier to figure out what was going on in this section, compared to Chapters 1-3. Kadare still manages to get in a cameo for Daisy. I'll leave it at that, until Sarah has an opportunity to comment. 🙂 2y

salderson107 Thank you for the pictures, they definitely help put everything in context! 2y

salderson107 Oops I meant to post more! I really liked this part much better. The image of the two men struggling down the stairs with the unwieldy recording device was my favorite part here. I could see them struggle with it while everyone just sort of.....watched. the imagery really lends to the comedy of the piece. On the subject of comedy, I was wondering what felt so familiar about this book, and then it hit me- the humor is very similar to Farley Mowat's "Never Cry Wolf!" 2y

salderson107 Also, Ann I agree- this section was so much easier to follow for sure! I felt a little lost before, but now I feel like I understand what's going on. And I really want to know why the first poet disappeared for so long. On another note, the bulk of my thesis was on Bardic culture and it's importance in Welsh society and as past historical sources. I studied Homer as part of my minor field, and one of the main theories was that Homer was just the guy who wrote down the stores that had been sung and told for centuries. I love how our main guys are following that theory. 2y

Graywacke @salderson107 You remind me of a novel series on Welsh bards in the dark ages that I followed for a bit. The author publishes independently and is active in LibraryThing. I can send details. I enjoyed them in the right state of mind. 2y

Graywacke @Ann_Reads @salderson107 agree this is much easier now that we kind of know what it‘s (the novel) is doing. Although I have no idea what will happen next. And i feel a lot of distance between the author and the subject, like … he‘s never direct. The storytelling alway has an usual perspective. It‘s curious to me. And yet it seems to work. (I‘m not familiar with Farley Mowat. Noting.) (edited) 2y

Graywacke @salderson107 do you see similarities/differences between these and the (maybe poorly known?) Welsh bards? How much do we know about Welsh bards? 2y

Graywacke @Ann_Reads @salderson107 I hope you guys get a chance to watch bard videos. They‘re short, if that helps. The modern version really struck me. 2y

salderson107 It's really difficult to explain everything about bardic culture in a short amount of space, and I do not claim to know everything. That being said, bards in late antiquity and early Medieval Wales held a lot of power because they were considered to be the holders of History. Many of their poems were considered fact. This is true of most pre-literate cultures. Bards could make or break kingship, as they could sing praises or tear down a king and people would listen. I have a theory (and I don't think I'm alone) that this is all that is left of the pre Roman/pre Christian Druidic Celtic culture. However, after the Norman invasion as we head into the high Middle Ages, the power of bards became as history keepers and story tellers, but with no sway over lordship or princes. I feel like it's the same concept in other areas all over the world. 2y

salderson107 I'm totally going to watch the videos later tonight! 2y

salderson107 You should check out Never Cry Wolf- it's a great book about a biologist who travels to the Yukon territory to study wolves because the Canadian government thinks the wolves are killing off the caribou. It's a great book 2y

AnnR I'm just catching up with the thoughtful comments here. Tomorrow I plan to watch the videos and will post more. 2y

Graywacke @salderson107 interesting about the Celtic bards and their history. It makes me imagine a very dangerous Homer. Also, I like biology and the Yukon. I should check out Never Cry Wolf. 2y

Graywacke @Ann_Reads agree, fun conversation. Let us know what you think of the single string singers. 2y

salderson107 I love Celtic history so much! Definitely check out Never Cry Wolf! I think Homer wrote down the stories that had been passed down, but there are so many theories! He wrote down 16 poems, but only The Odessy and The Illiad survived 2y

Graywacke @salderson107 16 poems? The Epic Cycle plus the Theban cycle? (All I know about these is that they are lost, and are assumed to have had different authors) 2y

AnnR Commenting on the videos: I really enjoyed watching these @Graywacke. Thank you so much for taking the time to find them. The drone footage of the Accursed Mountains was beautiful and serene. I'm glad the YouTuber didn't add any voiceover to the video. It brought home just how isolated that area in Albania is, being in a valley and making travel (other than by water) quite difficult.
(con't) ⬇⬇⬇ 2y

AnnR “The Legendary Epic of Kosovo“ performance was more polished. The English subtitles, makes one realize they are singing about mundane things like making coffee, lol. I appreciated the more rustic “The Singer of Tales.“ That seems more authentic to the story since it's from Albert Lord. It really is stories set to a melodic tune though my ear isn't accustomed to that type of music. Not something I'd usually seek for entertainment purposes. 🙂 (edited) 2y

AnnR @salderson107 Really insightful comments about the history of Celtic bards and their level of power in society due to them being the keepers of knowledge. That does make sense.

In general, I wonder how many purposeful alterations were made to oral recitations, for whatever reason, such as to make an important person seem more heroic. Not something that could really be answered but probably in keeping with human nature. 2y

salderson107 @Graywacke Yes I'm pretty sure there are 16. BUT 14 of them were lost amd we have no idea what they are about. In my opinion they are all probably about the Bronze Age collapse and later emergence of the Greek and Roman cultures. I feel like that's what the Odessy and Illiad are about 2y

salderson107 @Graywacke ooh I don't think they are the Epic Cyles or the Theban Cycle. There are so many works of literature that are lost forever. 2y

salderson107 @Ann_Reads thanks Ann! There are some hints about how all bards would remember poems. There are patterns. Many songs are changed slightly but the basics stay the same. But since we have no time machines, sadly we are unable to know for sure 2y

salderson107 @Graywacke thank you for sharing the videos! They were pretty awesome! I really love the Accursed Mountains- I would love to visit them! 2y

AnnR @salderson107 I guess I was wondering how much of the rhapsodes are actually true to begin with (if based on actual events) versus being exaggerated for specific reasons. As you said, without written documents to compare it to, that makes it difficult to tell. Even written (supposedly nonfiction) accounts can be exaggerated. Different individual's versions of a historical event on Twitter is a prime example. Just thinking out loud here. 2y

salderson107 @Ann_Reads so true! In college one of the things I learned was that many accounts of battles were exaggerated (10,000 men vs 500, men born from Gods,, etc). Nevermind the fact that history is often written by the victir 2y

salderson107 @Ann_Reads in any case, I bet some things are true, while others are exaggerations or embellishments, or even poetic license used to make a point 2y

Graywacke @Ann_Reads @salderson107 my favorite explanation of the Iliad is as an artistic rendition of the cultural clashes when Mediterranean barbarians tried to ransack wealthy west Asian cities. Greeks being the barbarians and Trojans being the cultured Asians. (I also like that Ajax uses an older form of armor than the other soldiers, a curious anachronistic placement.) 👇 2y

Graywacke These Albanian legends are different. Like Helen, they are focused on infidelity and reinforcing conservative cultural values, but the context is different. The reality behind them is maybe along the lines of Arthurian legend. ?? (edited) 2y

salderson107 Ooh I love the Arthurian legend connection! What a cool concept! I can see what you mean about the clashes, but I don't agree really. My question would be why would Greeks, who considered themselves the height of civilization, think of the Asian groups to be more cultured? There is a lot of room for questions and interpretation here, though, and I would love to hear more about this theory. 2y

Graywacke @salderson107 I‘m thinking of a book i read: Why Homer Matters by Adam Nicolson. He doesn‘t see the Greeks of Classical time as the Greek‘s of the Iliad‘s time. He thinks the Iliad touches on deeper history when there were no cultured Greeks. He‘s imagining a version of the Sea Peoples. (Of course, the Greeks _in_ the Iliad have aspects of barbarian raiders. They are raping, pillaging, killing, and capturing booty from a fortified rich city.) 2y

salderson107 @Graywacke that's super interesting, I'm going to have to read that! 2y

Graywacke “The Sea Peoples are a hypothesized seafaring confederation that attacked ancient Egypt and other regions in the East Mediterranean prior to and during the Late Bronze Age collapse (1200–900 BCE).” They are associated with the collapse of Bronze Age civilization, and the Greek Dark Ages: “the period of Greek history from the end of the Mycenaean palatial civilization around 1100 BC to the beginning of the Archaic age around 750 BC.” * 2y

Graywacke *all from Wikipedia. 😁 2y

Graywacke @salderson107 Nicolson‘s book is good fun, regardless of its correctness. 🙂 (edited) 2y

salderson107 @Graywacke I love that you point out he isn't an historian and you got your info from Wikipedia! I'm going to read it and keep an open mind and see what he says 2y

Graywacke @salderson107 oh, right, he writes on history but is not considered a historian. Read with caution. 2y

salderson107 @Graywacke I will definitely think about that when I'm reading! Background in the field and peer review is important for sure! 2y

Graywacke #homerinalbania 2y

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Graywacke

The File on H. | Ismail Kadare

The File on H. - Chapters 1-3 #homerinalbania

Very unexpected opening for me. All Albanian satire, and very little Homer so far.

We‘re in Albania under King Zog I (ruled 1928-1939). Our researchers, Max Ross and Bill Norton, are fictional parallels to Milman Parry and Albert Lord. But our focus is on Albanian domestic espionage.

So, is this anything like you imagined? Are you into it, or turned off?

AnnR, salderson107

Graywacke Parry and Lord were groundbreaking famous Homeric researchers who first recorded saga storytellers in Serb-Croat in Yugoslavia in the 1930‘s, using the new magnetic tape recorders developed ~1930. Of course they were American, not Irish, and they were in a different country. They both were associated with Harvard. 2y

Graywacke Links to get started with Parry and Lord

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milman_Parry

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Lord

See Modern Tape Recorders section here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape_recorder

Go to History of Homeric Scholarship section- and to the “Modern” subsection here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer (edited) 2y

AnnR Thanks for all the background links, Graywacke. 🙂 I'm going to read that information and then come back and comment again. My initial impressions:
I didn't expect the story to be humorous even though the “book blurb“ said it was. It isn't ha-ha funny but more comical, even with the translation. (The governor and his wife make a great/weird comedy duo.) Any similarities to the 1990s Bosnian political upheaval, are likely going over my head. 2y

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Graywacke @Ann_Reads it‘s a very different kind of thing they I imagined, thinking of Parry and the nature of storytelling. Kadare knows this whole story, but he‘s put it all as a side show. The center of the story is the nature of repressed Albanian. I‘m adapting to that, just different from my expectation. 2y

Graywacke I do suspect Kadare is actually writing about 1981 Communist Albania (it was published in 1981), and using Zog as a sort of cover. It‘s a self-surveillance society, so sounds more 1981 than 1931. Also, I‘m really entertained the 20th century had a king Zog. 🙂 2y

AnnR @Graywacke The Bosnian political upheaval, I was referring to was from a really old NPR 1998 book blurb. I think the reviewer's mention of the upheaval in Bosnia was just coincidental timing with the 1998 US publication of The File on H. Sorry, I should have made that clear in my prior message but was edging near the Litsy character limit per post. Should have con't on in another mssg.
Link: https://www.npr.org/1998/01/19/1036394/the-file-on-h 2y

AnnR (Con't) I actually don't know much about communist Albania in the 1930s or 1980s (or the country's general history) so I probably should read up some about that on Wikipedia, too. 🙂🙃 Thanks for all the other info. Wikipedia has some very thorough articles; one of my favorite online reference sources. (edited) 2y

Graywacke @Ann_Reads thanks for the link! I can see parallels, or at least it‘s a deranged state of affairs in this Albania. 2y

salderson107 I'm going to be honest and just say I'm super confused as to what is actually happening in the Albanian government at this time. I don't know much about this time period in Albania. That being said, this is my take so far: we are in a tiny town in Albania and 2 Irishmen arrive (but I'm confused because they came from America?) Amd the governor's wife is in love with the idea of foreigners and just wants to have an affair OR the idea of an affair. Then we have the governor who 8s positive they are spies and so he sends out his own spy to spy on them. But really they are studying Ho m er and Homer's Epic Poetry in Albania where there is still Homer's epics. I'm hoping that pieces start to come together soon because I feel a little lost! I will say the have been several points that I found really funny! Especially how tge Irishmen are speaking very stilted Albanian and it's throwing everyone off. 2y

Graywacke @salderson107 the Irish speaking Albanian is really funny, especially in that context. I‘m confused too. I think I got everything you described. But i have no clue why we are meeting these people, or where this book is headed. 2y

Graywacke Although Kadare clearly knows what these researchers are up to. 2y

salderson107 Yes! I think it's on purpose though. I have a feeling that it will start coming together soon. 2y

AnnR @salderson107 I think you summed it up pretty well! I read chapters 1-3 twice, which helped, especially pgs 44-61 with all the italicized journal entries from Bill Norton. The whole interaction with the governor and his spies taking the (Irish/US) researcher's papers and copying them - Then the governor reading them allows us readers to kinda know what is going on.

The weird relationship between the governor and his wife? Comedy? I'm not sure. 2y

Graywacke @salderson107 I hope you‘re right and it will make more sense soon. But I think I‘m into it now regardless. 2y

AnnR Surely the story will transition sometime soon to the actual study of the Homer epic oral traditions. If I'm understanding things correctly (maybe???) it sounds like Max and Bill plan to move onto a more remote place called the Buffalo Inn, soon.

2y

Graywacke @Ann_Reads admiring you read it twice. The governor‘s wife …she is comedy. I also wonder if we should also see her as a kind of mythological element. 2y

Graywacke @Ann_Reads we‘ll find out. 🙂 2y

salderson107 I really like Daisy a lot! I think the governor is super odd! The 2y

AnnR I think Kadare is poking fun at the governor and perhaps a certain segment of male society by making him completely insecure and jealous. Foreign spies are out to invade the country, enemies are lurking in the shadows and every man's goal is to sleep with his wife. He seems controlling and Daisy seems bored out of her mind. (edited) 2y

AnnR @Graywacke, a really interesting thought about out Daisy possibly representing a mythological element. I'm intrigued but cannot quite puzzle it out on my own. 🤔 2y

Graywacke #homerinalbania 2y

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Graywacke

The File on H. | Ismail Kadare

The diplomatic bag from the Royal Albanian Legation in Washington, D. C., arrived on a gloomy winter‘s day, of the kind that nature bestows with particular prodigality on the capital cities of small backward states.

@ShyBookOwl #FirstLineFridays

AnnR, salderson107

AnnR Excellent! 👍🙂 2y

Graywacke #homerinalbania 2y

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Graywacke

The File on H. | Ismail Kadare