cathetbuddyread

#cathetbuddyread Book 5 - finishing One of Ours

Ok, I actually shed a tear when I finished. I don‘t do that, but it finished and I just sat there thinking and getting carried away deeper. Alas, silly me. Cather does her own work with WWI, a somehow gentle yet straight-up take on the war experience. The news reporter she once was seems to have taken a part here, maybe. Or maybe just fiction. Thoughts? Does it work? Do NE and WWI tie?

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @CarolynM @batsy @jewright @catebutler @crazeedi @Tamra @bromeliad 5y

Graywacke (NE is the postal code for Nebraska) 5y

Tamra I think it ties together in the sense how the war impacted the “every man” that Claude was and their families, even in the expanse of the Great Plains that gets glossed over between coasts. How apt was the ending!? I very much appreciated it and it drove home the cost of war and its lasting damage. Nonetheless, it did feel like two different stories for me, disconnected to a degree. (edited) 5y

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Tamra I won‘t forget those lonely suicides. 😑 5y

batsy It's funny to me how distant I felt from Mrs Wheeler in terms of her beliefs and perspectives, but how close I felt to her emotionally. The ending was so moving. Besides Claude of course she's one of the characters I keep thinking about the most. 5y

Graywacke @Tamra does tie, does disconnect? I kind of feel the same - they go together but have dramatically different feel, tied/divided by a Virgilian/Dante-like odyssey to the underworld in the transport ship. I‘ll challenge the “every man” only a little. Claude came from a well-to-do family. I suspect most volunteers were partially driven by need...?? But Claude is generalized as it turns out, I think. 5y

Graywacke @Tamra @batsy The ending. His mother, his ghostly presence, the dissolution, the suicides, the list of names, David, etc - She wove in and tied off with a lot of emotional charge, weighted emotional charge. My emotional ocd was fired off - all this just keeps spinning... 5y

Graywacke @batsy - the repulsion/embrace of his mother - I had that feeling too; in those last paragraphs I felt them both in a really meaningful emotionally charged way. She meant more to then, well now, then ever before that. 5y

Tamra @Graywacke I‘m thinking “every man” in terms of him being midwestern from a farming family. The underworld odyssey is an interesting reference I‘d hadn‘t thought about! I need to ponder over it. (edited) 5y

Tamra @Graywacke I agree, she really seems to be the emotional thread that binds up the story. Haunting end. 5y

Tamra @batsy me too, I didn‘t relate to her until the farewell. Her character seemed mono-dimensional up until then and I was more connected to Mahailey in terms of development. 5y

Lcsmcat I think the ending would have been particularly powerful when it was written because novelists didn‘t kill off their protagonists so much then. I mean, there is Little Nell, but most of the time no matter what horrific things went on around him, the hero lived. To me, that was a powerful anti war statement. A Brandy Alexander moment. 😀 5y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I like your point about the voyage over as Odyssey. Very apt. 5y

Lcsmcat @Tamra @batsy I too felt closer to Mrs. Wheeler at the end. I was angry with her for not standing up for Claude at the beginning, but by the end I felt like she understood how he “needed” the war in order to become his full self. 5y

Lcsmcat I kept wanting to hear, at the end, what happened with Enid. I know Cather wanted us to feel how completely Claude had freed himself from her, but I would have liked to have heard how she felt about his going to war/dying etc. 5y

Tamra @Lcsmcat I agree, she seemed to understand that and I so empathized with her gratitude that he didn‘t come home to suffer (PTSD) & the disconnect he had previously felt. Even if that hadn‘t been the case, you can understand the need for her feeling so. 5y

Lcsmcat About the war, one quote I highlighted but hadn‘t shared yet is: “That was one of the things about this war; it took a little fellow from a little town, gave him an air and a swagger, a life like a movie-film,—and then a death like the rebel angels.” I think it supports @Tamra ‘s point about “every man.” 5y

Tamra @Lcsmcat I have to admit I gave her no thought after she left! It‘s interesting to question how Cather intended for readers to react to Enid. Obviously she wasn‘t happy either and left for what she hoped would be broader horizons, but I got the impression she was judged harshly. Is that because she was a woman and her place was with her husband? I disliked her character, but I have to evaluate whether it‘s fair since neither were in love w/e/o. 5y

Tamra @Lcsmcat adding to my reply: Though Claude wanted to be happy and give it go. 5y

Lcsmcat @Tamra Yes! She was so keen to send him to war, she would have to have some feelings of guilt/responsibility and acknowledging the problems the survivors faced could alleviate that. 5y

Tamra @Lcsmcat I too read the novel as an anti-war statement. I haven‘t done any research about her to confirm that however. 5y

Tamra @Lcsmcat thanks for pointing that passage out, I didn‘t recall it. 5y

Lcsmcat @Tamra I agree that Enid was judged harshly. I don‘t think she‘d have agreed to the marriage in a different time period. But, having agreed to it, she should have tried. And it just made me so sad for Claude, that what he thought would be his great happiness ended up being his worst pain. 5y

Tamra @Lcsmcat it is sad - he was willing to try. 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @Tamra I thought about Enid a lot, constantly. Her religious obsession annoyed me to no end. But she was fascinating, a clash with her times. But, I mean, she liked Claude. I would have liked to know how she took the news...or if she cared, etc. 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat odyssey - I had in mind Aeneas‘s trip to the underworld between Dido and pre-Rome. Odysseus had his own underworld trip. Haven‘t read Dante yet (next month!)...but maybe an odyssey applies more universally to the whole 2nd part of the book. 5y

CarolynM War disrupts people's lives. In so far as the book is disjointed I think it is reflecting that simple fact. Claude was a real person with a series of life experiences culminating in his going to war. His war experiences (and I think this would be true for every combatant) were unrelated to his old life. But because Cather does such a good job of showing he is the same person he always was I think the book works as a whole. 5y

CarolynM I agree with @Lcsmcat and @Tamra that the book is anti war. I particularly liked the way she showed what had happened to the ordinary people who were unlucky enough to live on or near the battlefields. Being required to house and feed the officers of whichever army was on their territory while their lands and villages were destroyed. Horrible! And the little girl saying the baby was not her brother "He's a Bosch". Ugh! (edited) 5y

CarolynM I found David an interesting character too. And I began to wonder about Cather's intentions. Yet another "glamorous" figure Claude became attached to. Was she hinting at some sort of homoeroticism? It may just be my obsession with Sassoon and Owen - I hadn't considered it until the war context. I certainly think it was suggested with the German officer's locket and I can't think why she would have included that for any other reason. 5y

Tamra @CarolynM oh yes, that was an emotional punch! (edited) 5y

Graywacke @CarolynM David was gay. She couldn‘t say it outright, but she had at least three neon signs, the locket being one. Claude - I don‘t think he was, but then Enid... don‘t know 5y

Graywacke I mean Claude‘s interest in Enid may have had a homosexual element 5y

CarolynM @Graywacke I'm glad it wasn't just my imagination. I don't think Claude was gay necessarily but he certainly seemed happiest around men with attributes that were outside his own experience. 5y

Graywacke @CarolynM I think Cather was doing something with Claude she wasn‘t telling us about. He dies doing a routine thing, directing men to hold their ground and coordinate. But for him it was higher order event, an ecstasy of sorts. Homosexuality is an explanation. But I suspect she saw this war as boys playing power games, and here Claude, who was never really able to see beyond what was there, even if he saw through falsehoods and fakes, was all in. 5y

CarolynM @Graywacke I think you've got to the heart of it there. He could never make his own way, he was always tagged on to others. In some ways war was perfect for him because it provided the framework for how he was to be, then he could be in command in his immediate circumstances. 5y

batsy @CarolynM I was wondering about that element of possible erotic attraction between Claude and David. Not least because Cather's own life played out that way; she was never "out" in the way we use the term now but you know, the energies present in Claude and his unease with fitting in back home could have several layers. I could be overreaching in trying to read an element of Cather in all of her protagonists, though :) 5y

batsy @Lcsmcat @Tamra Yes, so true. I was heartbroken, that maybe she finally understood, but she couldn't convey that understanding to her son because he's gone. I also found it so bittersweet in Part 8 of Book 5 when Claude, despite all that they had endured on the journey on the ship to France, felt that "He was enjoying himself all the while and didn't want to be safe anywhere". That driving force in him to be anywhere else but safe at home. 5y

batsy @Graywacke I thought about Enid a lot, too. She aggravated me as well but I found her so compelling. Their sexual relationship or lack of it aside, she seemed to like and respect him to a degree. Possibly loved him in her own way. I want a book from her perspective! 5y

Graywacke @batsy that book from Enid‘s perspectives - you would need to write it. 5y

batsy @Graywacke Haha, oh dear! #catherbuddyread holds an emergency meeting: "This book is simply unreadable and we cannot continue" ? 5y

Graywacke @CarolynM “in some ways war was perfect for him” - yes! And see Batsy‘s ( @Batsy ) quote four messages up. (edited) 5y

Graywacke @batsy it has potential 5y

Graywacke 🙂 5y

Tamra @batsy I would definitely read her perspective - so intriguing from this era. 5y

Tamra @Graywacke @CarolynM Unfortunately I didn‘t note the chapter, but my mind keeps coming back to the narrator‘s commentary about how in years to come soldiers would reminisce about the war experience, good & bad, but would especially miss the comradeship. It seemed to sum up Claude; how the voids he felt at home were filled with singularity of purpose, common experience, and collective identity. (edited) 5y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke @CarolynM @batsy I agree that Claude was “all in” as Dan puts it. Another quote I highlighted , from Book 5 “He saw that he must be a plane tree for somebody else.” It was when he was lost after taking Fanning to the hospital and he kind of gives up and leans against a plane tree, then spots his men who were also lost and realizes he has to take responsibility. Finally, he‘s in charge of his life, he thinks. The Cather turns around 👇🏻 5y

Lcsmcat and shows us that, in war, no one is in control of what happens to them. 5y

Lcsmcat @batsy If you write it, I‘ll read it! 5y

Lcsmcat @Tamra @Graywacke @batsy @carolynm Any thought about the title? For a character who so didn‘t fit in, One of Ours can‘t be an accident. 5y

CarolynM @Lcsmcat Very good points. Control was something he never had and had no idea how to achieve. I think the title might come from that idea, he was always defined by those around him, he couldn't or wouldn't define himself and become his own person. 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @CarolynM I had misunderstood the title in the beginning. I assumed this was a book about a soldier coming home and clashing with the small town life. Hence, the title as a reminder to the town. That being way way out there and sounding silly now means I‘ve had to rethink it all... 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @CarolynM So my 2nd thought is along @Tamra ‘s “every man” theme. I think she‘s highlighting _all_ these kids were our kids (now (great?) grandparents) who went over there, which was not ours. We sent ours, so to speak. In this theme all Claude‘s personal oddities are no different from every other soldier‘s oddities. One individual with a full life of personal conflict, adversity, potential, life, for each number. 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @CarolynM all of which sounds really us-centric. And it is, but it can be applied universally. 5y

Graywacke Speaking of US-centric: did anyone else buy into the American idealism of these soldiers - going to fight for against bad Germany in the propaganda, the marines being professional around the French girls, the men being heroes in the same French village where the Germans were vile enemies, the cleanliness, purity of intent and so on? No power trips, rapes, rampant life-is-short destructive behavior and so on? Was Cather accurate or...? 5y

Tamra @Lcsmcat I was thinking along the same lines, that the title reflected Claude finding himself & place among his comrades in arms. But I also like @Graywacke ‘s idea re: one of our sons. That is fitting with the end too. (edited) 5y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke @CarolynM @Tamra I had a similar misconception about the title in the beginning as Dan (like I said earlier, you don‘t expect MC to die in works of this era) but I like Carolyn‘s take. He wasn‘t “his” He was “ours.” But I also like Tamra‘s reading that the “ours” were his fellow soldiers. I wonder if Cather ever explained her title? 5y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I did not buy into the American idealism and I‘m not sure Cather did either. It would take another closer reading to be sure, but I wonder if there are clues, like the clues to David‘s sexuality. Like that subject, she couldn‘t have spoken directly on the subject without ruining her career. (Pacifism was persecuted. There was an Episcopal bishop who lost his job because he was a pacifist during WWI) 5y

Lcsmcat If clergy can‘t be against war and keep their jobs, writers would have a very difficult time! 5y

Tamra @Lcsmcat I didn‘t know that! 😐 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat ( @Tamra ) Do you think that still applied in 1922? As for Cather‘s clues - begin with the German-Americans in the courtroom. 5y

batsy @Graywacke @Lcsmcat This is how I thought of the title, too. She would have been largely writing to an American audience & it might have been a "one of ours goes to war & this is what happens to them". 5y

batsy @Graywacke I didn't buy into the American idealism/exceptionalism that was there in the war section. In my review when I mentioned having issues with the book that I still haven't quite sorted out, that was the main thing. And I was wondering if it's written that way because it's coming from Claude's romanticised perspective, and thus maybe can't be attributed to the novel as a whole, but to the character? If that makes sense. 5y

batsy @Lcsmcat 😁 @Tamra Enid is certainly memorable and complex and if I do have some regrets about how the book ended, its that we didn't see her again. (And Bayliss didn't get put in his place!) 5y

Lcsmcat @batsy I wanted updates on Enid and Bayliss too. And not necessarily happy ones. 😈 5y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I‘m not sure how long it went on, nor how long it was between submittal to a publisher and publication of the book. I‘m just suggesting she might have felt the need to tread lightly. 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat ( @batsy ) 😂 unhappy wishes. 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat : @batsy called it a gloss in her review, like a gloss of romanticism over the war experience. There are two aspects I‘m thinking of. One is censorship. Admittedly, I‘m not sure how a big a deal that was for an author who published a pro-German work during the war. (Song of the Lark). The other is Cather vs character perspectives. The character can justify the author doing a lot. But which is which? Or, is it really a positive gloss? (edited) 5y

CarolynM @Graywacke @batsy @Lcsmcat Australia has a similar mythology about our presence in France in WWI (supported, I have to say, by some of the monuments in France) but of course it can't be the whole story. It would have been brave to the point of foolhardiness to directly challenge the myth so soon after the war. I think there were a few oblique challenges - the priest's niece, for example. 5y

Tamra @batsy @Graywacke @Lcsmcat @CarolynM re: batsy‘s comment about Claude‘s perspective. This was why I felt the powerful ending overshadowed any romanticism/exceptionalism/idealism about war. I didn‘t sense any pride at the close, just loss & loneliness, maybe futility and hopelessness. (edited) 5y

Lcsmcat @Tamra I agree totally that the ending overshadowed any romanticism about the war. It‘s why I think the “glory” aspect was Claude‘s perspective. 5y

Lcsmcat @CarolynM I think we all have that mythology. Survivors try so hard to believe the sacrifices were glorious and necessary. It‘s hard to live with yourself otherwise. Different war, but I had a German exchange student when I taught in UT and we took the kids to hear a holocaust survivor, and he was a teary eyed mess at the end. A 17 year old boy. The losers of a war feel differently. (edited) 5y

batsy @Tamra @Lcsmcat Yes, that the final word belongs to Mrs Wheeler, as such, is significant. And it does work as a poignant and astute counter to the "gloss" I mentioned earlier. 5y

batsy @Graywacke Cather is definitely doing a lot & I feel I sometimes don't give her enough credit for how she works with form and structure. She's playing around a lot with narrative and perspective in subtle ways. Re: censorship and having to uphold or bolster national mythology, or not to go against it so overtly at a critical time in the nation's history, are all very interesting points to consider. 5y

CarolynM @Tamra Yes, absolutely. @Lcsmcat I take your point. I wonder how much our feelings about Vietnam and the way we have treated its veterans stem from the lack of a victory? @batsy Good reminder. Because she's so easy to read I think we can forget that she is such a great literary technician. 5y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Have you chosen the next book? Not that we need to start right away, I‘m just allowing time to order if it‘s not one I already own. 5y

Tamra Thank you for hosting @Graywacke ! 5y

Tamra @CarolynM isn‘t that the truth re: ease of reading! 5y

Graywacke @Tamra 🙂 Really enjoyed this whole conversation. We might have stretched the limits of a Litsy thread... 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat yes, just waiting for the thread to wind down. Still waiting. Maybe I‘ll create a new post to check interest. I‘d like to go chronologically. In 1923 she published

A Lost Lady

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Excellent- I own that one and have been eager to read it. I don‘t know that this thread will wind down anytime soon. There‘s so much to talk about! 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat terrific conversation !! Really enjoyed all this, and it‘s a nice reward - reading a book and getting of this afterwards. 5y

Graywacke @batsy @Lcsmcat @Tamra @CarolynM - thanks all for a wonderful conversation. Really enjoyed this. I‘ll get a feeler out on A Lost Lady this weekend - see what kind of interest there is. (I have a 3-week schedule in mind. I think it‘s roughly half the size of this one...but not sure.) 5y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Thank you for shepherding us through this . I‘ve liked Cather for years but only read the “famous” ones before this. And I‘m getting more out of the famous ones too. 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @CarolynM @batsy @Tamra Highly recommended you read the “composition” section here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_of_Ours 5y

Lcsmcat Wow! That‘s really interesting! Thanks for sharing. 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat Going back three messages, I meant to say thank you - but got waylaid by Wikipedia. 😊 Thanks! This is all new to me, so I‘m getting a ton out of it. ... regarding the Wikipedia article itself, I agree and you‘re welcome. 🙂 5y

CarolynM @Graywacke @Lcsmcat @batsy @Tamra Thank you all for the stimulating discussion. Looking forward to A Lost Lady. I think it's the other Cather novel I've read but I can't remember for sure. 5y

Graywacke @CarolynM 👍 5y

batsy @Graywacke @Lcsmcat @CarolynM @Tamra Thank you all for always stimulating discussions. We have some of the most involved discussion threads I've seen :) Dan, thanks for that link! I'd love to join in for A Lost Lady & reading chronologically sounds 👌🏽 I'm trying to get physical copies of her books & local bookshops rarely stock her. I'll order online but is everyone OK with a short breather? International mail can take up to 2-3 weeks 😬 5y

Lcsmcat @batsy @Graywacke @CarolynM @Tamra I‘m fine with that. It‘ll give me time to finish The Testaments. 😀 5y

CarolynM @Graywacke @batsy @Lcsmcat @Tamra I'll fit in with whatever you decide. 5y

Graywacke @batsy No problem. I‘ll set the start date to later October or early Nov (have to check a calendar) 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat i‘ll be listening to The Testaments soon, probably start next week. 🙂 5y

batsy @Graywacke @Lcsmcat @CarolynM OK, cool! Thank you. 5y

batsy @Lcsmcat This is the part where I confess I've yet to read The Handmaid's Tale. I've been "meaning to" ... for years ? 5y

Lcsmcat @batsy You‘ll read it when the time is right. It‘s earned its place in the canon, so it‘s not going anywhere. 5y

Tamra @batsy I haven‘t either. 😏 even my husband has and that‘s saying something! 5y

Tamra @batsy @Graywacke @Lcsmcat @CarolynM I won‘t be able to join. 🙁 I‘ll be in the midst of another class and my recreational reading slows. I hope Lost Lady is as rich as this one. I recall loving Death Comes for the Archbishop. 💜 5y

CarolynM @batsy Me neither and I don't really want to. I'm sure it's good but it doesn't have much appeal for me. Sorry you won't be part of the next one @Tamra We'll miss you. 5y

batsy @Tamra @CarolynM Oh, I'm glad I'm not alone! 😆 I find Atwood an enormously interesting writer but the subject matter of this one is extremely distressing which is probably why I've been avoiding it. (And we'll definitely miss you during the next round of Cather, Tamra.) 5y

Tamra @batsy I very much enjoyed Alias Grace & Bljnd Assassin. I don‘t know why I haven‘t gotten around to Handmaid‘s Tale. I think the hype has a lot to do with it. My husband enjoyed the television adaptation too and I‘m tempted to watch it instead of read. I know that‘s sacrilegious. 😮 5y

Graywacke @Tamra @batsy @CarolynM @Lcsmcat I‘m reading The Handmaid‘s Tale right now. 😂 It‘s a reread for me. I have this idea of doing the Booker list in Audio and The Testaments will be next, so I‘m refreshing my (apparently very lost) memory. 5y

Graywacke @Tamra wish you well in your class. I‘ll nudge you a little on the next one, see if that works better and had interest. I‘ve read Death Comes for the Archbishop. It was the book off my shelf that led to this buddy read. Hoping to reread it with the group. 5y

Lcsmcat @Tamra I hope your class goes well, and that you‘ll check in when you have time. 5y

Lcsmcat @batsy @CarolynM Atwood is an amazing and prolific writer, so there‘s something for everyone in her work. If the hype puts you off, don‘t read Handmaid right now. But do read something by her. Poetry, short stories, nonfiction, graphic novels and novels - she has written in all of these genres. 5y

batsy @Tamra @Lcsmcat I loved Blind Assassin and Alias Grace, too! Cat's Eye is probably my favourite of hers and also enjoyed The Robber Bride. @Graywacke Contemplating picking up Hag Seed after our Tempest group read 🙂 5y

Graywacke @batsy I‘m hesitant to read the Shakespeare novelizations - at least the straight-up ones like that. If you do read it, I‘ll be curious of your thoughts. 5y

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